The Dark Knight (2008)

Matt (00:00:47):

Hey, this is the 1-Week Rental podcast, and we’re so pleased to welcome you once again to the summer of Nolan. I’m Matt Stokes.

Laci (00:00:54):

And I’m Laci Roth.

Matt (00:00:55):

This is 1-Week Rental. Every week on the podcast, we spend the week with the movie and then we tell you everything that we have learned. And this is the 200th time we have done that. 200th episode of our show. So we’re doing it on a pretty damn big movie, The Dark Knight.

Laci (00:01:12):

You’re welcome.

Matt (00:01:13):

Yeah. So 200 times we have done this. We’ve been doing it a long time. Go check out that archive. Look for your favorite movie if it’s not The Dark Knight and start with that episode. But I got to tell you. I got to tell you, Laci.

Laci (00:01:25):

Tell me.

Matt (00:01:26):

Lay

Laci (00:01:27):

It on me.

Matt (00:01:27):

200 episodes in, I could never have been more surprised than when we finished the two and a half hour running time of The Dark Knight. And Laci says, “I fucking love that movie.”

Laci (00:01:39):

I was also shocked.

Matt (00:01:41):

Truly.

Laci (00:01:41):

I don’t remember liking it the last time I saw it.

Matt (00:01:45):

So first of all, first things first, you had seen the movie before, but not in theaters. I thought so. Not in theaters.

Laci (00:01:50):

I don’t know.

Matt (00:01:51):

Well –

Laci (00:01:52):

Who could ever know these things?

Matt (00:01:53):

Yeah. Yeah. Nobody ever knows stuff like that. But I remember watching this movie with you very early in our relationship at my little rinky dink apartment in uptown New Orleans. And I remember you saying once the ferry sequence starts, I don’t want to watch this anymore.

Laci (00:02:08):

You keep saying ferry and I’m like, that sounds so fun. A little ferry sequence on the boats.

Matt (00:02:13):

Yeah, when they’re on the boats. Yeah, because

Laci (00:02:14):

They’re choosing… Times were different than in my life. I had less control over my children. Maybe I didn’t want people blowing them up.

Matt (00:02:23):

That makes sense now that you say it like that. I was like, “Boy, it’s fun. They’re on the ferries. I’m going to pull the little train ground.”

Laci (00:02:28):

Little kitty sudden. Yeah. This time my kid was sitting right next to me and that shit was fun.

Matt (00:02:33):

That’s the other thing. The 15-year-old in the room with us also having a great time with this movie. Had never seen this movie. I don’t think even… It’s funny. I tried to quiz the 15-year-old while you were going to the bathroom like, “Hey, so what Batman… Okay, so Batman is Bruce Wayne.” And the kid’s like, “No shit. I don’t think you’ve ever seen a Batman movie before though. So how do you know of it? I don’t know. You just absorbed this by Osmosis. But The Dark Knight itself, we’re not huge fans of Batman Begins this most recent time around. And I just know from watching movies with you, this is generally not your kind of thing, but you

Laci (00:03:09):

Would need to this. I don’t even know what thing you would say this is. I feel like it’s many things. And just Heath Ledger is just… I’m just…

Laci (00:03:22):

I’m in. I’m locked in. His little mannerisms, they’re gross. They’re so not things I’m normally okay with. Mouth sounds licking. It’s like he embodied someone who literally had these kind of insane mouth injuries. And what would that be like? Your tongue would be placed in a different way. The way you speak would be affected. You’d constantly be kind of adjusting yourself and maybe gathering spit off of where it shouldn’t be collecting. How did he do that? I don’t think I appreciated that the first time. I think I was probably really distracted by the fact that the actor is no longer alive and this time I was distracted by it in a good way.

Matt (00:04:05):

Well, I know it’s hard for you to remember things like all the way back in 2008. Do you remember being at all aware of this movie coming out and having any fascination with

Laci (00:04:16):

The –

Matt (00:04:16):

Well, I mean,

Laci (00:04:16):

Who wasn’t aware that Heath Ledger died?

Matt (00:04:19):

But you don’t think you went and saw it in theaters? I

Laci (00:04:21):

Don’t know. I don’t

Matt (00:04:23):

Know.

Laci (00:04:23):

2008, was I married yet?

Matt (00:04:25):

No.

Laci (00:04:27):

Who was I dating?

Matt (00:04:29):

Probably – Who was

Laci (00:04:29):

I

Matt (00:04:29):

Dating? The guy you married? Well, wait, how long did you date him before marrying him?

Laci (00:04:34):

I don’t know. 10 months. I don’t know. A couple months.

Matt (00:04:37):

Three

Laci (00:04:37):

Months? I don’t know.

Matt (00:04:40):

Okay.

Laci (00:04:41):

Let’s get him on the phone.

Matt (00:04:42):

Laci erases things from her memory after a couple minutes.

Laci (00:04:46):

I like to learn new things and you got to make cuts.

Matt (00:04:52):

Yeah.

Laci (00:04:52):

Yeah.

Matt (00:04:53):

But this is a movie that was so rapturously received, unanimous, oh my God, greatest superhero movie of all time, maybe one of the great American movies ever made. It has so much to say about the war on terror and the moment we’re living in. Wow. And I could not have been more excited to go see it in a movie theater. And I went to a midnight screening and I remember the movie ends and I thought that kind of stunk.

Laci (00:05:19):

Oh.

Matt (00:05:21):

I then gave it another chance because everybody kept saying it’s amazing. Watched it on DVD and liked it more. But basically every single time I have watched this movie, and I’ve probably watched it 10 to 15 times. Wow. I feel the exact same way.

Laci (00:05:36):

What?

Matt (00:05:38):

And I give this movie three and a half stars, which is like the most non-committal star rating you can give to a movie that you think it’s good.

Laci (00:05:45):

You give those a lot.

Matt (00:05:46):

Yeah. Which is for two thirds of the movie, I’m like, “What am I talking about? This is great.” And then that final third happens and I think – Where would you

Laci (00:05:53):

Start the final third?

Matt (00:05:55):

The ferries? Harvey Dent turns into two face. And I think this is stupid and this is confusing and this is boring. And now everything that annoys me about Christopher Nolan is coming out. And all the things that we talked about in our Batman Begins episode about thinking like, did a child write this script in crayon? It’s ideas about crime. It’s ideas about like, what’s a bad person? I need to be a symbol, Alfred, that I feel like Dark Knight does a good job of hiding it. And then it just splooges all over your face in the final third of the Dark Knight.

Laci (00:06:26):

What is a splooge?

Matt (00:06:28):

The ideas about how important it is to be a symbol, a white knight who can fight crime. And what they are talking about, ladies and gentlemen. Harvey Dent, he’s a prosecutor who goes after the mob. Just substitute Harvey Dent, Aaron Eckhart for Rudy Giuliani. That’s who they’re talking about.

Laci (00:06:45):

But don’t you think this movie is saying is that you shouldn’t be waiting for White Knights, that they don’t exist, that all people are flawed? It’s just about circumstance?

Matt (00:06:51):

No, they’re saying you need to believe… It’s so important that people believe in White Knights. It’s people believing… It’s like a tinkerbell thing. We have to believe in good fairies and then the world will change. And so I just get mad and want to throw something at the TV. And I like Aaron Eckhart a lot in this movie, but I think that this character kind of sucks. We’re going to get into all of this. I

Laci (00:07:12):

Don’t know how I

Matt (00:07:13):

Feel. You’re

Laci (00:07:13):

Taking things away from me.

Matt (00:07:14):

Yeah, this was the most I’d ever enjoyed it because I had you and Max sitting next to me being so into it. I was like, I’m plumbing my fist too.

Laci (00:07:22):

I totally forgot about the two-face turn so that it really helped me. I just like dent. That’s not a hero’s name.

Matt (00:07:28):

Dent. Dent. That’s

Laci (00:07:29):

Something that’s damaged.

Matt (00:07:30):

Damn.

Laci (00:07:31):

Dent.

Matt (00:07:31):

Well,

Laci (00:07:32):

The good thing – And he has a villain’s chin, right? So I’m like, when’s that going to come up? And then it’s like, oh, he claims to be Batman. Maybe he’s got a villain’s chin because it’s like, no, you’re not. Everyone can tell you’re not. And then I was like, oh. I though he turned a bit too quick. I don’t know how much nice guy was in there, if that’s all it fucking takes.

Matt (00:07:51):

The thing about Harvey Dent, which has not gone into in this movie is he has multiple personality disorder and two faces. Two faces always inside of him. Once he has the accident, that’s the personality that takes over. Okay,

Laci (00:08:02):

Because it is interesting that he’s like, what did your friends at the DA used to call me? Or what did your friends at the precinct used to call me when I was such and such? Oh, don’t let me touch. Two-face. It’s like, wait, I don’t know if you earn that. I don’t know that we have any knowledge of you before right now or the way you were at the beginning of this movie. So what’s the two-face coming

Matt (00:08:24):

From? With that, he was at Internal Affairs investigating cops. So he is a cop because always acts like he’s your friend, but actually I’m taking all you guys down.

Laci (00:08:35):

When really it was a bad cop inside of him. And the good cop was always there not taking him

Matt (00:08:39):

Down at

Laci (00:08:40):

All.

Matt (00:08:41):

If you’re aware that Harvey Dent is two-faced, even that’s okay because in many Batman stories you watch, for example, the Michael Keaton, Jack Nicholson Batman, Harvey Dent’s in that movie and he’s not two-faced yet. He’s played by Billy D. Williams. And then he gets recast, A Black Man Replaced by a hite man, Tom Denny Jones when he becomes Two-Face.

Laci (00:09:02):

Well, it’s really his two faces.

Matt (00:09:03):

And then Batman, the animated series, there’s tons of episodes before he takes the turn and Harvey Dent is a character in the show. So you can watch this movie and assume, oh, okay, he’ll turn in the next movie.

Laci (00:09:15):

Which is why I didn’t think he’d turn in the next movie. I though we’d see his story arc in the next movie.

Matt (00:09:22):

Yeah. I think everyone kind of assumed that because that was not present in the marketing at all. And it’s one of the things I appreciate in the movie is that they just complete his story. It’s not teased. It’s not teased for a sequel. Tell the story you want to tell right now. Don’t save stuff for the future. But you loved this movie. Truly could not have been more surprised. We had also watched Heat, which you had never seen. And Nolan has always, he’s not been shy about his love for Michael Mann and for Heat and for saying, “With The Dark Knight, I wanted to make Heat, but in Gotham City.” How much do you feel that that is there in the final movie?

Laci (00:10:00):

No, I wouldn’t have connected the two at all. I mean, I think it’s just such a, I guess, because Heat was an interesting spin on an idea that was new at the time and maybe because I’ve also then saw –

Matt (00:10:14):

Denim Thieves.

Laci (00:10:15):

Yes. And just the idea that police and the people out there protecting people and the criminals, they’re all walking a very fine line and are way more similar than they are different. So if it’s telling the story of Heat because The Joker and Batman are like, they’re not mirrors of each other. They’re just really similar and they kind of complete each other. And I guess that’s the De Niro to the Pacino. Is that how it’s like Heat?

Matt (00:10:46):

I think that’s part of it. I think it is, let me tell a story about a city and the way all of these things are connected, the way the crime is connected to the people chasing the crime. But I don’t think it’s a successful examination of a city like that. No. I think it has a lot of flaws that Batman Begins also had with its ideas about crime and what causes crime and how you effectively deal with crime. And we’ll talk about all of that as we go through the movie

Laci (00:11:12):

Itself. Yeah. I mean, again, it’s still a baby brained idea. It’s like, no, we just really need to get the mafia as if that’s any big city’s biggest issue with crime. It might be the most longest spanning. It’s a pipeline and you’re not going to ever really get rid of that kind of thing, but it’s always still poverty. It’s all the abuse at home and neglect at home. This isn’t what’s wrong with the city. This is just something cities have in them. It’s an organized… There’s the people who police crime for your typical folk and then there’s people who rise up and make sure things are fair for the ones you’re not representing. That’s the mafia.

Matt (00:11:53):

The central thing with Bruce Wayne is this is a stupid thing to want to do with your billions if you want to make the world a better place. And my favorite Batman stories are the ones that acknowledge that, like Tim Burton’s two movies. However, if I did this video where I tried to say, what would be an actually responsible way for Bruce Wayne to spend his billions of dollars to make the world a better place? Give

Laci (00:12:15):

It to everyone.

Matt (00:12:18):

But what does that mean? What are you giving that? You’re giving it to charities. Charities are also crucial.

Laci (00:12:23):

You give it to each individual person who’s over 18.

Matt (00:12:27):

How? Like you’re sending them all a check?

Laci (00:12:29):

Yeah, you’re giving them the way they did it for after COVID, during

Matt (00:12:34):

COVID. Yeah. That is a thing you could definitely do.

Laci (00:12:36):

Put it in a trust for the world. I have no idea how you’d do it.

Matt (00:12:40):

Yeah, because then it’s, well, who’s administering the trust? I think the best thing that you can do is you got to find a politician probably. You have to find a Bernie Sanders. You have to find somebody committed to systemic change. And this movie does do that. It’s just that the politician he finds is a tough on crime prosecutor. And that’s what makes it stupid. But Bruce Wayne’s kind of a stupid man, but the movie thinks he’s right.

Laci (00:13:08):

Yeah, he’s a bro. But there’s nothing to tell you that there’s high intelligence in that young man’s head. He’s just good at fighting. And he has Alfred and Lucius. So I don’t know that anyone can go wrong with that combination. Good lucks, money.

Matt (00:13:23):

Wiseman. Bothered me at the end of the movie that he’s talking to Lucius in his Batman voice and calling him Fox. Fox.

Laci (00:13:29):

What are you doing? Right. Calm down.

Matt (00:13:33):

It’s more interesting if you’re treating this like you have a human relationship.

Laci (00:13:37):

And sometimes you’re in your outfit and you’re using your regular voice. That’s interesting too, because that would happen.

Matt (00:13:43):

There’s

Laci (00:13:43):

Transitions. And maybe it’s hard to remember who knows you and who doesn’t know you. So he’s even method acting Batman inside of the movie he’s in. Like no, when I’m wearing the thing, this is high. And if he’s got a pee and it’s not coming out and he’s like, come on. Just a, oh, just a little. A

Matt (00:14:02):

Babbling Brook.

Laci (00:14:02):

A Babbling Brook. Even do his own dick.

Matt (00:14:05):

Yeah. I think that that’s probably the actual story reason for why he’s doing it. It just always bumped me out. And don’t call him Fox. Fox. Hey,

Laci (00:14:13):

He’s helped you more than anything. He’s next on the line. Wisdom. That means the best.

Matt (00:14:20):

So we’re now going to get into the history of The Dark Knight. Concentrate a lot on that Joker. Love that Joker. But why? Why do we love The Joker so much? Hey, remember to subscribe to us on YouTube and the audio podcast and wherever else you got to subscribe to stuff and leave us a review and follow us on all the social medias. A review

Laci (00:14:38):

With words.

Matt (00:14:40):

Love a review with words. And also we have a Patreon, two bonus episodes a month for $5 a month link in the description. So let’s go back in time. It’s 2008, everybody. Let’s say it’s January 2008.

Laci (00:15:20):

So we’re all kind of bumped.

Matt (00:15:22):

Yeah. No, all the holidays are, oh, I’ve got the January blues. But I look at the release calendar and there’s some big movies on the horizon. Can’t wait to see that Dark Knight movie that Warner Brothers has so effectively been marketing.

Laci (00:15:34):

They’re putting out during the dump season?

Matt (00:15:36):

No, it comes out in the summer.

Laci (00:15:38):

Oh. A lot of marketing.

Matt (00:15:39):

I’m going to tell you about the marketing campaign in a little while, but there’s been a more than a year long early viral internet campaign because they knew they had something special with The Joker.

Laci (00:15:49):

It starts with the very end of the first movie. People going…

Matt (00:15:52):

That’s true. At the

Laci (00:15:53):

Card flip. I mean, the marketing begins.

Matt (00:15:56):

But let’s say it’s the summer of 2008 and you’re like me. How old would I have been? 20 years old, obsessed with movies, reading variety.com all the time. And you’ve been aware the past few years, a lot of superhero movies, so many superhero movies. It’s like we get one superhero movie a year. It’s crazy.

Laci (00:16:14):

Wow.

Matt (00:16:15):

Can you imagine? Even though Spider-Man three had been huge in 07, a lot of people are saying, “This is it though. The bubbles burst. I mean, The Dark Knight will be big later this year, but that’ll be that. I think this wave is over.” And we’ll go back to normal movies about asteroids and cowboys. I don’t know what normal movies are.

Laci (00:16:33):

Ooh, put that together. Armageddon.

Matt (00:16:34):

Have you just worn a fucking… And I’m sure he does wear a cowboy hat. A normal movie, what I always define a normal movie as is Harrison Ford’s in it. And he’s like, “I’m a guy and I don’t want to do this. ” Driveway movies, exactly.

Laci (00:16:47):

Mailbox movies.

Matt (00:16:49):

Michael Mann movies.

Laci (00:16:51):

I don’t know. Heat’s pretty special.

Matt (00:16:52):

Yeah, I know, but that’s like the elevated –

Laci (00:16:55):

Oh, oh, oh, right. Movies that are not a property. Got it.

Matt (00:16:58):

But Heat is a cable classic. So it’s like those kinds of movies.

Laci (00:17:03):

Well, and you’re banking on the legacy of the actor you pick rather than the legacy of the property.

Matt (00:17:10):

Exactly.

Laci (00:17:12):

Money in the bank actors is what I was trying to say. Mailbox actors.

Matt (00:17:17):

Mailbox.

Laci (00:17:18):

Well, mailbox money. The money you can actually depend on monthly is… I was going somewhere. I get

Matt (00:17:23):

It. Yeah, I get it.

Laci (00:17:23):

There’s a mailbox movie.

Matt (00:17:25):

Now there’s no more dependable mailbox actor than Robert Downey Jr. Who’s… Not really, but we don’t know it at the time, but he has a movie coming out in May, Iron Man. And it comes out in its enormous hit and everyone likes it. And then a few months later, it gets absolutely curb stomped by The Dark Knight, which becomes the biggest movie of all time. Just this cultural defining. Movies have even been bigger since then, like Avatar and Avengers Endgame, but they do not penetrate the culture the way that The Dark Knight did. The way that everything was about The Joker for years where characters on The Office are dressing up as the Heath Ledger joker and people are constantly quoting it.

Laci (00:18:06):

Do you have thoughts on Without the Death, what are we…

Matt (00:18:09):

I think it would still have had… It wouldn’t have been as powerful, but I think that there is something about the character that people were just… It was perfect match of character and moment. People were ready to embrace him and embrace what he’s saying. Yeah. It’s funny now to look back and see how thoroughly that Iron Man and the MCU transformed Hollywood and transformed… Oh, you have no idea the number of superhero movies you’re going to be getting all because of this movie that nobody was really even paying attention to that came out a few months earlier than The Dark Knight. But Batman Begins comes out in 2005. It’s a nice little hit, has that ending. Oh, got to flare through the theatrical. He has his God and everyone’s excited. But Christopher Nolan always insists he didn’t actually intend to do a sequel. He wasn’t signed on to do a sequel.

Matt (00:19:02):

And he didn’t mean for that to be a literal tease for the sequel. He just wanted it to be a cool – A

Laci (00:19:06):

Nod. What’s next for Gotham?

Matt (00:19:09):

And that you can already see the effect Batman being in this world is having, which Gordon kind of even says is like, take this guy, escalation. This maybe is what we are in store now. But

Laci (00:19:23):

Creative bad guys are going to seek out Gotham because they need an opponent.

Matt (00:19:27):

Parallels,

Laci (00:19:28):

It’s not fun.

Matt (00:19:29):

So you can believe him or not. It doesn’t matter, but it’s like – I got

Laci (00:19:32):

No reason not to believe him.

Matt (00:19:35):

But it was absolutely inevitable. They’ll offer you enough money where it’s not a choice, which is what actually happens with the sequel to this movie where it seems like he really did not want to do a sequel, but they made him. So he and David Goyer, the co-screenwriter from Batman begins. They start brainstorming sequel ideas a few months after Batman begins, comes out. I’m going to read now from Ian Nathan’s book, Christopher Nolan, the iconic filmmaker and his work. He had barely begun pre-production on The Prestige when his thoughts turned to the concept of escalation posited by Oldman’s Gordon that the very existence of Batman would have an equal and opposite effect among the criminal class of the Midnight City. Flamboyant villains and the grand tradition would emerge from the shadows. The next in whom had already been announced. He seriously tried to picture The Joker through the realest prism of what he had done in his first Batman film.

Matt (00:20:26):

A paradoxical concept was becoming inevitable. He was going to make an original sequel. When you’re dealing with questionable notions like people taking the law into their own hands, you have to really ask, where does that lead? Nolan said.

Laci (00:20:40):

Kyle Rittenhouse. Is that the wrong person?

Matt (00:20:42):

No, you’re thinking of… Yeah, that’s the actual…

Laci (00:20:44):

Right. It’s not good. It’s not ethical. I don’t care how much money you have and how many people you’re picking to correctly stop. Because what does Batman do? He doesn’t kill, right? That’s his ethics.He won’t kill.

Matt (00:20:56):

It’s one thing.

Laci (00:20:58):

But he delivers? To

Matt (00:21:00):

The cops. He just

Laci (00:21:00):

Wraps them up.

Matt (00:21:02):

Yeah. And at the beginning of this movie, he has copycats and they say, “What gives you the right to do this? ” And he goes, “I’m not wearing hockey parents.” But what he is really saying is like, “I’m a fucking billionaire and you’re not. You’re a blue collar slob.”

Laci (00:21:14):

Right. Well, and they have guns. They don’t have the morals of… But you didn’t divine the morals and they don’t know that you’re not ever going to kill. You haven’t yet. You’d certainly be able to have a good lawyer. Also, we don’t know your identity. You can get away with murder.

Matt (00:21:31):

You can do things like international crises, extra judicial renditions out of Hong Kong. Go and get this Chinese national and kidnap him and bring him back to America. All of a sudden

Laci (00:21:42):

It turns into mission impossible. I’m like, “What the

Matt (00:21:44):

Fuck?” I think that the leger Joker is the best thing in this Batman trilogy. Hands down. And I’ve made no secret about… I don’t like Christopher Nolan’s take on Batman and the Batman world. But this I think Joker, let’s look at the Joker from comic books and movies and stuff and say, what would he actually look like in the real world? I think that’s the good version of his idea. It’s like that’s the… Ooh, that’s where I see this is a good idea.

Laci (00:22:14):

And I love that he even plays with your expectation of like, oh, someone like this must have such a horrible backstory. This poor guy is definitely a victim. And he proceeds to tell you two and a half stories that are about the same thing. So you’re like, this motherfucker’s just a… I don’t know. I don’t know. I mean, still he must have been damaged in some kind of way, but he seems to be kind of okay about it.

Matt (00:22:36):

I remember when it was popular on the internet, a fan theory of this guy’s actually a veteran of the Iraq war. Isn’t that fucked up?

Laci (00:22:44):

It is when you make up something and then you react to it.

Matt (00:22:46):

But I don’t know. It feels kind of right.

Laci (00:22:48):

Sure. I mean, that could definitely radicalize you again toward what are we fighting for? Who are the good guys? What is any of this? Are any of us heroes?

Matt (00:23:00):

But especially since it’s an all volunteer army, that means that at some level you made a choice to go over there. So in Vietnam, when you got drafted, people came back and became anti-war and they protested and stuff. But if you consider yourself like this fighter and then you go over and decide this is fucked up, I guess I’m going to have to be a joker.

Laci (00:23:21):

All of us are murderers as long as there is an inciting event. And for Batman, it’s his parents being killed. For Harvey Dent, it’s his woman being killed. So then what are we talking about? All of us are just people who haven’t murdered yet.

Matt (00:23:33):

Yeah. I’d like to, when we get to the big scene in the jailhouse, the jailhouse when they’re talking to each other is try to unpack what is his actual ideology? The joker. Who? The joker. Because I think he does have one. I think it’s wrong to say he doesn’t believe in anything.

Laci (00:23:48):

I think it’s to show the hypocrisy of everybody else’s of this idea of there are moral people and there are immoral people. And I think his point is no, there are circumstances and some of us enter into them and some of us have a life where we don’t have to make these choices.

Matt (00:24:04):

Well, I think that one of the reasons he’s so popular is that so many people, you and I included, go through the phase where we like to be like, “Oh yeah, you believe in the Bible. So I guess you think it’s immoral to eat shrimp idiot.” He’s basically just pointing out, “You’re a hypocrite. You’re a hypocrite. You believe in this, but that’s stupid.”

Laci (00:24:23):

Right. Batman is saving crime, but he’s a criminal. It’s such a contradiction. He is committing crime and it’s being praised. What’s the line? Where’s the fucking line? Why are these imposter Batmans doing crime, but Batman, Batman isn’t?

Matt (00:24:38):

You can go through a phase of your intellectual development. It’s usually when little edgelord boys become anarchists. He is right. The society, you think we have rules. We have no rules. This is all a fiction. When the rules are no longer convenient, the wealthy and the powerful are going to set them aside. Now, a smart person then moves past that and says, “Well, what am I going to do about it? ” And the Joker’s solution is, “I just need to keep pointing it out. ” And I think that that appeals to people because it means it doesn’t require that much more action on my part. I just have to point out when people are being hypocrites. So that’s kind of my conclusion I’ve reached about the Joker this time is he’s basically a junior high, shitty 14-year-old boy. And what would have been interesting to see in a sequel is, does he grow beyond that?

Laci (00:25:26):

Right. Does he think – Right, because you keep waiting for it. You keep waiting to learn what he’s about and all you keep learning is that he doesn’t care. He cares immensely and doesn’t care. He is a contradiction. He is definitely getting a thrill out of everything he’s doing. But for it to be so meaningful to him, he’s teaching people, but he shouldn’t be someone who cares to teach because he

Matt (00:25:49):

Doesn’t – He does. He wants. He wants to teach. I want you to see there are the rules. They’re not going to save you. But why? What’s that going to do?

Laci (00:25:57):

Right. What’s your end game? He has such a high tolerance for pain. He doesn’t seem to have anything to live for, but he’s living for some kind of really big reason too. He seems to be a person who doesn’t care at any point that if he were to die, but until he does die, he cares very much about what he does with his time. That’s a contradiction.

Matt (00:26:20):

So I’ve always wondered what he would’ve done in a sequel. I think he would’ve been the main bad guy in a sequel. Instead they do Bain, but I think he could have been in the Bain role if he does have this realization that teaching people lessons, doing what Batman says he wants to. I want to be a symbol. The saw? It’s not enough to be jigsaw. It has to be in service of something, some sort of transformation of

Laci (00:26:45):

Society.You seem to be wanting to make people more aware. And why do we do that? That’s so that we can see each other as more like equals and make things better or show that there’s not a big difference between a criminal and someone who has not committed a crime yet or whatever.That seems to be what he’s pointing out. But why? What does he want to happen because of that? For us to feel stupid or for us to feel like a collective, like a part of a bigger…

Matt (00:27:16):

Yeah. And because he died, we didn’t get to see a sequel with him in it. We don’t get to see would this character go somewhere like that?

Laci (00:27:22):

Oh, look, in the third one, he left a manifesto. And then we’ll just read all that.

Matt (00:27:27):

In an interview with Collider in 2008, Nolan said, “I had very much enjoyed the rhythm and dynamic of the origin story that we got to tell in Batman Begins. So it was a little bit daunting how we were going to replace that. The feeling of scale and size that gave us, just the span of time of that story.” That’s

Laci (00:27:43):

What was boring, dude. Your shit outside of Gotham is boring as fuck.

Matt (00:27:48):

It’s to this movie’s advantage. As you kept the story

Laci (00:27:51):

Smaller.

Matt (00:27:52):

Less no liney movie than Batman begins to its immense credit. So what we chose to do is tell a very immediate, very linear story, but based on a slight genre shift going a little more into the crime story, a little more into the kind of epic city stories of films like Michael Mann’s Heat, things like that, which I think achieve great scale, even though they’re confined within one city. But there you go. That’s what’s so effective about this movie.

Laci (00:28:15):

Yes. You know something interesting about these spins on this version of Batman is that we don’t spend any time in any layers where Tim Burton’s movies seem all about taking us to where take the shift completely off of the good guy and the whoever and just take me down to their layer. I want to hear them plotting and scheming and I don’t know. Where’s the layers?

Matt (00:28:40):

Nolan doesn’t care about that at all.

Laci (00:28:42):

Well, you’re in Batman’s three different kinds of fucking housing.

Matt (00:28:45):

But because the bat cave and the Wayne Manor are destroyed. He just has the –

Laci (00:28:51):

A bunker.

Matt (00:28:51):

And it’s so empty. There’s nothing in it. And I think Nolan would prefer we all live like this. It

Laci (00:28:56):

Is the back rooms.

Matt (00:28:56):

Yeah. Everything is just functional. Just this is my room where I have stacks of papers.

Laci (00:29:01):

The lights turn on when you walk there. They turn off when you’re not walking there. Every wall is actually a file cabinet and it knows what you want out of it.

Matt (00:29:09):

God, that would be amazing.

Laci (00:29:11):

Just I’m thinking of a recipe for my grandma. Shoots out.

Matt (00:29:15):

David Goyer told Empire Magazine in 2009, “I like the Burton films a lot, but the one bone I have to pick with film, television, anything.”

Laci (00:29:23):

Bucking bone pick what?

Matt (00:29:25):

“I just never felt that the Joker was scary. Chris and I wanted the Joker to be scary, which is what led to the Dark Knight.

Laci (00:29:32):

“But the penguin is scary? I could kick him.

Matt (00:29:36):

I think Danny DeVito’s Penguin is kind of scary.

Laci (00:29:38):

Yes, just as scary as the Joker. I think the Joker’s scary.

Matt (00:29:41):

Yeah, I think Jack Nicholson’s joker is kind of scary. Because

Laci (00:29:44):

You don’t know what he’s going to do. You don’t know why he’s doing what he is doing. When you don’t know a person’s motive, they are scary. With the Penguin, you knew their motive. You knew what brought him there. And I think the Joker realizes that it’s like, “Oh, everyone’s looking at me and I’m committing a crazy crime. And I’ll bet you’d want to know my backstory. See my scars?” And he tells a different one every single time just to fuck with you. “Bitch, I don’t have a reason.” And you don’t need a reason. We all have a reason and we all don’t have one.

Matt (00:30:13):

I think for someone like Goyer, who’s like a comic book history expert, he’s aware that in The Joker’s history is he was this scarier character who then had to be toned down and become more of a merry, silly prankster. And he wants a movie to really go back to when he was a terrifying villain.

Laci (00:30:30):

Yeah, because we have the Riddler for that. It is weird to then Jim carry it up. I mean, that is the camp escalating because okay, you’re in a onesie. I’m not scared. I can see your ball sack.

Matt (00:30:45):

And I want to watch The Batman with you, the 2022 one, which has the Riddler as a villain where what they do with the Riddler is kind of just, can we do what Heath Ledger did with The Joker, but for the

Laci (00:30:53):

Reallar?

Matt (00:30:54):

Can you be like a fucked up Riddler?

Laci (00:30:56):

You know what I do remember liking, and maybe I’m wrong, but the movie that’s just about the Joker, is it really just called Joker maybe?

Matt (00:31:02):

Joker with Joaquin Phoenix. That

Laci (00:31:04):

Was good. I though I remembered –

Matt (00:31:07):

I want to revisit it.

Laci (00:31:08):

I would too. But I thought it was interesting that to put a neurological condition that you can’t help or some sort of body tick that you can’t help where you have a weird laugh. You can’t help what kind of laugh you have. You’re born with whatever range you’ve got. And his thing is that when he’s uncomfortable, he starts laughing and it just so happens he’s on a bus or his laugh is already strange and it’s happening when you don’t expect it. It’s like just that alone would be so… Because when you don’t know what a person’s going to do next, it is terrifying. So I just remember thinking, oh, that’s a cool… You become what people are saying you already are.

Matt (00:31:53):

And

Laci (00:31:54):

If you have that your whole life and then people think it’s weird, why not fucking lean in and be like, “Yeah, I’m laughing.” But

Matt (00:32:01):

These rules we have about how to be polite, how to be a person interacting in the world going about the world, it’s also arbitrary.

Laci (00:32:06):

Yes. Why can’t

Matt (00:32:07):

We have

Laci (00:32:07):

Tips?

Matt (00:32:08):

It’s

Laci (00:32:08):

Contentless. And with the fucking son that has autism, why can’t he jump up and down and make a fun vocal stem noise that makes him calm just because you’re not used to it at the Walmart?

Matt (00:32:21):

It’s

Laci (00:32:21):

Not hurting you. Your shit child was crying a minute ago. Why can’t mine want to be on the bottom of the basket and just watch the floor go by?

Matt (00:32:31):

Let

Laci (00:32:31):

Me do that.

Matt (00:32:32):

A thing that happens all the time when I’m out with him is he loves to lay on the ground and look at things, but literally laying on the concrete. Yeah. And people will pass us on, because we go on tons of walks, people will pass us and I don’t resent them, but we almost every time they’ll be like, “You guys okay?”

Laci (00:32:45):

Yeah.

Matt (00:32:46):

And I know I’m not expecting you to understand that that’s what’s happening is that you’re not used to seeing children laying down on concrete.

Laci (00:32:54):

He’s using his senses differently because they are elevated. So in order to hone in on a thing, he has to put his body in a different way. It’s not weird if someone who can’t hear puts a cup around their ear with their hand and leans in, that’s all he’s doing. But we don’t have any fucking curiosity about things that aren’t exactly as we expect them to be. Have fear and judgment.

Matt (00:33:18):

Jonathan Nolan in that same interview with Empire said, “What’s so great about these characters is they’ve been around so long and they’ve been through so many iterations that it’s a little like Shakespeare. It’s people coming in and having their own take on a familiar character and viewing it through a different lens.” I think The Joker particularly was a lesson for me because that character can connect to the peyote stories of Native American mythology and low-key endorse mythology. And there are so many examples of a Joker like Figure that you can endlessly reinvent that character. That

Laci (00:33:46):

Ties in 10 Things I Hate Abut You. It brings that in, right? Because that’s a retelling of Shakespeare.

Matt (00:33:51):

That’s true. You’re right. And when we check out our 10 Things I Hate About You episode where we said, because there’s not that many Heath Ledger movies and The Joker’s pretty much the only one. Very good. Yeah. Very good.

Laci (00:34:03):

But he says it’s kind of a comedy.

Matt (00:34:04):

Yeah. When we talk about Heath Ledger, I’m going to talk about a Nightsdale. But we watched that movie and we kept thinking he’s making so many Joker faces in this movie. He keeps doing Joker Face.

Laci (00:34:13):

It’s not that. There’s not that many people with a curled up smile that show all the way to the back of your teeth. And I mean, look at this actor that you have on the screen here. The only way they’re casting for The Joker is I need someone with a naturally wide set grin and I have to show… I’m doing a website for a law firm that I’m not too familiar with the attorneys and they sent me the headshot of a man and his smile goes all the way to his ears. It is insane. And I was like, I got to show about this fucking picture. I got to show about this picture.

Matt (00:34:44):

Well, I don’t know what I’m smiling about.

Laci (00:34:46):

He looks really nice, but then there’s one where he is making just a serious face and I’m like, “This one? I think this one? Let’s go with

Matt (00:34:53):

B.” So we have to talk about the dang Joker, okay? The history of The Joker. And we are not comic book experts. We are on week experts on this show. This is stuff I’ve looked into for… I’ve always been interested in comic book history. I’ve read tons of Batman comics to prepare for this episode. And I mentioned I’ve read a handful of books, but the origin story of The Joker, if I get anything wrong, please forgive me and correct me in the comments. I know no one hesitates to correct me.

Laci (00:35:21):

I would like to vouch and say that it’s very cute that Matt treats comic books and graphic novels the way I do sushi is that every phase of his life, he just tries it because then maybe this time it’ll take. I’m just going to try. It’s such a me thing. I’ll just try it. And so one day it’ll just –

Matt (00:35:37):

You like sushi now.

Laci (00:35:38):

I like

Matt (00:35:39):

It now. And I like comic books now.

Laci (00:35:40):

Right? I just had to try it for 15 years.

Matt (00:35:43):

Oh, no. Starting in college, I kept trying and what I always thought is this confusing. I don’t know what to look at.

Laci (00:35:48):

Right. And it feels like a club that it didn’t take too long to find all the rules.

Matt (00:35:53):

I’m doing it wrong. Doing it wrong. I’m just reading the words. People are

Laci (00:35:55):

Going to

Matt (00:35:56):

Know. Don’t I need to look and really stare at every picture and be like, hmm.

Laci (00:35:59):

I don’t know what order to read the clouds.

Matt (00:36:01):

Even that’s hard. Yeah. It

Laci (00:36:02):

Is

Matt (00:36:02):

Hard. But the joker first appeared in comics in 1940, one year after Batman first appeared in comics. As with all these fucking comic book characters, there is dispute about who should get the credit for creating him. Batman himself has always been credited to Bob Cain and Bob Cain alone until the past 10 years or so when Billfinger was added. There was a documentary that we watched about this that I think was pretty good. I don’t remember what it was called, but the official Batman credit is now Batman – How do you

Laci (00:36:30):

Finger? It’s probably the

Matt (00:36:31):

Name. Batman created by Bob Cain with Bill Finger. Even though even Bob Cain in the things he said after Bill Finger died, it really seems like Bill Finger’s the one who created Batman and you were just his employer, so you got the credit. But The Joker is credited by historians to Jerry Robinson, who is an artist employed at Bob Cain’s company along with Bill Finger and Bob Cain. So Joker appears regularly in the comics as Batman’s number one villain. He kills people, but then the comic book market shifts. They wanted to make it safer for kids. Even though these are always things that are consumed by kids, they think no more murder and mayhem. So the character gets sanded down, turns into more of a gesture of a marry princip.

Laci (00:37:18):

Put him in purple. That’ll do it.

Matt (00:37:20):

And in the ’60s TV show where he’s played by Cesar Romero, that cements The Joker for like 40 years of people. Is that the

Laci (00:37:26):

Photo I’m see here? Is that

Matt (00:37:28):

Cesar Romero? No, what we are looking at is the silent actor, Conrad Vite.

Laci (00:37:31):

Who’s known for his… It’s very Tim Curry, known for that smile that can

Matt (00:37:37):

Almost curl. Who was sort of the model when they drew the original joker?

Laci (00:37:42):

No fucking shit.

Matt (00:37:43):

And this actor’s actually the guy who plays the main Nazi in Casablanca, Colonel Strasser. But he was a German silent actor, but they loked his face.

Laci (00:37:53):

You want to be the main

Matt (00:37:54):

Nazi. Yeah, no. In the ’70s, the character finally gets to return to his roots as a murderist, very scary guy. In the ’80s, you have an extremely popular graphic novel by Alan Moore, The Killing Joke, which provides an origin story for The Joker.

Laci (00:38:09):

Which one is it that Heath Ledger told?

Matt (00:38:11):

His

Laci (00:38:12):

Girlfriend or his

Matt (00:38:12):

Mom? In that comic, he is a standup comedian who has a wife, a pregnant wife, and he can’t provide for her. And then he decides to go do a crime and it goes wrong. If I recall correctly, even in that, there’s some sort of contradictions in his story.

Laci (00:38:29):

Who cuts the cheeks, baby? That’s all I’m asking.

Matt (00:38:32):

It’s been a while since I’ve read

Laci (00:38:34):

Daddy. Is that Cannon though? I mean, because I’m looking at the Joker here in the original comic and those aren’t scars. I don’t even think I would’ve though of them as being scars until he keeps bringing them up.

Matt (00:38:45):

I don’t know at what point they establish things like the scars on his face and the thing where his skin is white. It’s not makeup that he’s putting on. When he puts on makeup that’s to make himself flesh colored, except not with Heath Ledger. Heath Ledger, it’s very clear he’s putting on makeup and the makeup comes off the longer he’s in a scene. I

Laci (00:39:04):

Love it. And I don’t recall the Keaton movies, that actor just is makeup. I mean, it’s clown paint. There aren’t scars. I don’t remember scars on him either.

Matt (00:39:18):

No, it is scar. His grin is permanently like that when he falls into – It’s been

Laci (00:39:23):

So many

Matt (00:39:23):

Years. When he falls into the vat of chemicals – He gets

Laci (00:39:26):

Caught on the water.

Matt (00:39:27):

So in 1989, Jack Nicholson plays the Joker and they do make up a new backstory for him. What is sacrilege to Batman fans is they establish Joker as being the guy who killed Batman’s parents.

Laci (00:39:42):

Oh God. So boring.

Matt (00:39:44):

Before he turned into The Joker.

Laci (00:39:45):

Boring.

Matt (00:39:46):

When he was just a mobster named Jack.

Laci (00:39:48):

Well, because I mean, obviously it’s too pat, but it’s like, well, that made a Batman, I guess. So I got to be the answer to the Batman.

Matt (00:39:55):

And then later – The

Laci (00:39:56):

Cycle continues.

Matt (00:39:57):

Well, exactly. They’re in a feedback loop because later when Batman is chasing him, he chases him into a chemical plant and he falls into a vat of chemicals.

Laci (00:40:04):

Well, does this not raise the question of where are these bad guys getting their resources? Sometimes it’s obvious, but the Joker seems like a baller on a budget and he’s constantly talking about how he likes things that are inexpensive. So there does seem to be a moral thing for him where he’s constantly being like, “I burned all this money.” Okay, but did you burn all of it because you’re the joker and you’re doing things that aren’t expected? Or are you trying to teach some kind of… All of us can live on smaller means, including if we’re trying to cause anarchy. I can make big things happen with dynamite and those are cheap.

Matt (00:40:38):

I think that’s it. And this is the first time where I’ve ever thought he doesn’t know that Batman is Bruce Wayne, but he almost ambiently picks it up that this guy has to be a rich guy. He has the resources of the US military behind him.

Laci (00:40:53):

Yes.

Matt (00:40:54):

Who

Laci (00:40:54):

Locally makes military products? It’s not that fucking hard.

Matt (00:40:58):

So the Joker’s kind of a fucking Marxist antihero if you think about it. He’s kind of like Robin Hod. I enjoy him. Honestly, he kind of is. But the Jack Nicholson Joker in that movie, once he falls in, his skin then gets dyed. So his skin is just naturally white. And then when he wants to not look like The Joker, he has to put on makeup. And then they throw water on his face and now his face is that thing. Anyway –

Laci (00:41:27):

That’s how skin works.

Matt (00:41:29):

Through all this, Joker’s always been just the most popular of Batman’s villains, maybe even more popular than Batman himself. And I guess we already talked about why we think that is what it is about him. He’s

Laci (00:41:42):

The constant reminder of this is silly and a crime, Batman. We didn’t come from another planet. You weren’t bitten by something that turned you into something different. And what are you going to do with that? Every day and you could do anything you wanted, start scholarships, schools, go to Ghana. And every day you put the eye black on your fucking shit. Yo go downstairs, you talk to the old guy and then you get in your fucking room room car that makes you do this.

Matt (00:42:14):

And it’s just a big joke.

Laci (00:42:16):

It’s so stupid and it’s so small. Youre only fucking worried about Gotham where you grew up where your daddy built a train. You’re so small.

Matt (00:42:25):

Does the world exist outside of Gotham? In this movie we see that it does. On the website, bam, smack pow. I

Laci (00:42:32):

Don’t want to

Matt (00:42:32):

Appeal. This article I’m now going to quote from what is it about the joker that appeals to us on the psychological level? “The Joker represents the id in its most primal form. He is the walking incarnation of our basis, fears, desires, emotions, rage, wants, needs, and passion. Many people look at the joker and see the unbridled chaos of the id, and this is attractive to them. Now this does not mean that people are looking at Joker and are envious of him as a murderer. It just means that the id within is attracted to the idea of pure passion and unbridled chaos of emotions and actions.”

Laci (00:43:05):

We spend so much time in our skin trying to look right and appeal and follow rules that we’re not even totally sure what they are, but we know they exist and be good and people please and be polite and don’t ruin anyone’s day or make dad mad. And then you see this guy that’s just like, “What if he just didn’t do any of that shit?” And it’s like that’s a choice. I think we all know deep down he didn’t lift weights. He doesn’t have a ton of money. He has no special powers. All of us have the instinct to any moment, any day, be a joker if we wanted to. I think that might be what’s powerful. It’s so accessible.

Matt (00:43:45):

Of Laci being told don’t push that button and her immediate response, don’t want to touch the button. Because

Laci (00:43:50):

If I just push it a little. Yeah.

Matt (00:43:52):

Or, and maybe I’ll delete this. I remember going on a cruise with my family at age like 21 or something. My sister’s 16 years younger than me. So she’s like this little four-year-old standing next to me. The

Laci (00:44:07):

Same thing.

Matt (00:44:08):

Really?

Laci (00:44:09):

Yeah.

Matt (00:44:09):

For some reason, she and I were both looking out at the ocean and then suddenly I just got, I could not stop thinking, what if I picked her up and threw her off?

Laci (00:44:17):

Everyone had – I didn’t want to. We all do that. And I was just about to say the joker is what if your intrusive thoughts win? There you go. Yes. It’s like the time at Memaw’s where I pretend to slap plates all the time. And Danielle just got the best looking piece of cake. And I was like, “What if this time I just… ” And I slapped, it hit the ceiling. I just popped it out of her hand and she died laughing. But I was like, “Well, now anything’s possible.”

Matt (00:44:44):

The Mark Hamill joker would love that. Oh, cake on the ceiling. Can

Laci (00:44:48):

You imagine?

Matt (00:44:50):

So I did not want to throw my sister over the deal. It’s a really normal thing. I totally would never ever trust me.

Laci (00:44:57):

The power within us to do bad things is scary. It doesn’t take a lot to ruin a life.

Matt (00:45:03):

That’s what it was.

Laci (00:45:05):

Yeah. That’s why I don’t like guns or own them or want to be around them. It’s too easy. No one needs that power. No,

Matt (00:45:14):

No. Nolan was insistent on we’re not giving him a backstory. I don’t want to give the joker a backstory. “It’s quite a familiar trope really. If you look at Hannibal Lecter or one of those movie monsters like Darth Vader in Star Wars, the more you find out about those fictional characters, the less threatening they really are. Our decision with The Joker was to not deal with the origin story and to laugh at that convention. We wanted him to be absolutely threatening in what he represents as a force of anarchy and chaos. That’s really the reason for Harvey Dent’s prominence in the film. It’s his story that has to provide the emotional backbone of the film. He’s the character with the arc with a rise and a fall who the audience hopefully connects with and follows. And can

Laci (00:45:51):

We just say that fucking Commissioner Gordon does the most joker thing in the whole goddamn movie by faking his death for more than 24 hours, including fucking having cops go tell his wife and children that he’s Ted. And

Matt (00:46:09):

You can even now see that as like Batman’s affecting him. I’m going to do this insane, like evil – I didn’t want

Laci (00:46:16):

To risk you.

Matt (00:46:16):

Evil thing.

Laci (00:46:19):

You might as well have died. And now next time they come and tell me that you’re dead because you’re going to die during the job. I’m not going to know. When’s the big reveal? This

Matt (00:46:29):

Will surprise you. He’s divorced in the next movie. Oh,

Laci (00:46:32):

Okay. Well, yeah.

Matt (00:46:33):

How does your marriage survive that? Warranted. No, but truly, one of the most evil things anyone does in the movie. For what? So you could drive the truck?

Laci (00:46:42):

No, but he thought his family would be in danger if he didn’t fake his death, but you could still tell them or you could tell the cops who know to be the one to go tell your wife, look, he needs to be in hiding for a couple days. Hiding.

Matt (00:46:57):

To bring it back to heat, the De Niro crew robs the bank and then Al Pacino and his cops have military grade weapons and engage them in an insane shootout on the streets of Los Angeles.

Laci (00:47:13):

It infuriates me. Why do they even have those weapons? Those are not even standard issue cop weapons that I’ve even seen, that they’ve even talked about, that we saw them load. They just all of a sudden have AK – 47s. They’re such bad shots that they need to spray. Who pays for the tires in the windshield on just the random fucking car? It’s like $600 of fucking…

Matt (00:47:36):

I think when cops are complaining about paperwork, that’s what they’re talking about. Maybe. But you know what you said earlier about evil is like, it’s like evil parents who we don’t even pay attention to. You can see it in what Gordon does to his family here. You can see it in Pacino in Heat where I always wondered what’s the point of the Natalie Portman thing? Is this guy – There are. If he wants to do good in the world – Start

Laci (00:48:00):

At home. He

Matt (00:48:00):

Has this stepdaughter who already, you, the most insane person in the world are a steady presence for her. If you just devoted your resources to being a better dad toward her, you’re unquestionably creating more good in the world than you are shooting military weapons at bank robbers.

Laci (00:48:18):

Where we choose to spend the government money, how we disperse money to schools. There’s so many more insidious things happening that he could be correcting with his money, with his political power and all those friends that he pulls together for Harvey Dent. You want to show off all your wealth? Why don’t you put one billionaire in each district of all the school? You’re not tackling the right thing. Once the mafia’s gone, then there’s just a mafia to rise up. It’s not the right thing. Get them where they start. Give every child a dad. I’m

Matt (00:48:56):

Going to invest in the big brother program. Who would play the Joker? For years, the person attached to the role in fans’ minds is a man who openly talked about wanting to play the role of Robin Williams.

Laci (00:49:11):

Sick. When did he die?

Matt (00:49:14):

2014. But in 2006, it is announced that the role has gone to Heath Ledger.

Laci (00:49:20):

I’m sorry. No amount of Patch Adams is going to show me that you’re dramatic enough. You’re not good enough at being a bad guy. I know insomnia is good.

Matt (00:49:28):

No, he’s so good in Insomnia. Fine,

Laci (00:49:29):

But this –

Matt (00:49:30):

Insomnia, by the way, we have a Patreon episode about it that Laci’s not on, so she hasn’t seen Insomnia in a while. But Insomnia I think is the Nolan movie that has the most in common with The Dark Knight. I’ll detail it as we go. But Insomnia and One Hour Photo I think do suggest he could play an evil joker.

Laci (00:49:50):

I wonder though if he’d done it, it changes the course of his whole career and maybe he wanted to. But to do it as well as Heath Ledger did, you have to let go of anything you thought you knew about Robin Williams. And Heath Ledger was in a few enough movies to do

Matt (00:50:07):

That. Enough of a blank slate. Yeah. Although on our 10 Things I Hate Abu You episode, that’s episode 129. We do a detailed biography of him. So we’ll just briefly go through this. Breaks out with 10 Things I Hate About You. He’s this Australian, this Aussie coming over.

Laci (00:50:23):

Did he act in Australia or come

Matt (00:50:25):

Over? He did. He did.

Laci (00:50:27):

Theater?

Matt (00:50:28):

I don’t remember if he’s in theater, but – With

Laci (00:50:31):

That smile baby.

Matt (00:50:33):

He is positioned by Hollywood as this next big thing and they put him in a bunch of stuff like The Four Feathers and The Order and A Knight’s Tale. And of those movies, only a Knight’s Tale succeeds at the box office and is received positively.

Laci (00:50:47):

But then Broke Back Mountain, what a decision.

Matt (00:50:50):

Well, so I watched a Night’s Tale to prepare for this just because I’d never seen it. And it’s like the one Heath Ledger movie star movie. He carries the movie on his back. He’s so charming. It’s a very fun, lovable movie that I kind of call it irresistible because it’s a movie like Sweet Home Alabama where it’s like, fuck you, you like me.

Laci (00:51:13):

Yeah. I can’t not like Reese Witherspoon. I can’t not like Heath Witherspoon’s name.

Matt (00:51:19):

Keith Witherspoon, y’all. Where that movie is, it takes place in Medieval England or whatever, but it has anachronistic songs and they’ll start off doing a medieval dance that morphs into The Macarena or something and you think this is the corniest shit I’ve ever seen, but I’m smiling. But he also has a run of what I would describe as boring sun movies where he plays the son of Mel Gibson in the Patriot and the son of Billy Bob Thorn in Monsters Ball. He’s

Laci (00:51:45):

Got nothing to do.

Matt (00:51:47):

Brokeback Mountain 05, the Oscar nomination, the acclaim. He’s finally arrived. And then the next year coming off of all of that, the role he should have won in Oscar for Brokeback Mountain, a great movie.

Laci (00:51:56):

He didn’t?

Matt (00:51:57):

Philip Seymour Hoffman did. But this guy’s 25 years old. He’s got a whole career ahead of him. Phillipsmore Hoffman.

Laci (00:52:04):

Also seemed like he had a lot more to go.

Matt (00:52:06):

But it was like a, by this point, you deserve it. It’s time you got your Oscar.

Laci (00:52:09):

If it had to go to someone else, I’m good with that.

Matt (00:52:13):

So he gets announced in 2006 and immediately the jokes… The Joker would be fucking gay. Brokeback Joker, bro. Heath Ledger said, according to Dan Jolen in Empire Magazine, Chris and I very much saw eye to eye on how the character should be played. And it was evident from the meeting that we had a project. We had identical images within our minds. Nolan said, “We talked a lot about Alex and a Clockwork Orange, people like that. He’d come up with the same things independently. I looked into his eyes and I just saw this guy knows he can do something here. He wants to get in and do this thing.” And Ledger said, this is the famous story of how he prepared. “I sat around in a hotel room in London for about a month and I just locked myself away and formed a little diary and experimented with voices.

Matt (00:53:00):

I ended up landing more within the realm of a psychopath, someone with no empathy, very little to no conscience toward his acts, which is fun because there’s no real limit on the boundaries to what he’d say or how you would say something or what he would do. And I don’t know, it’s always a very personal process in terms of how you land in the character’s shoes, so to speak. It’s a combination of reading all the comic books I could and the script and then really just closing my eyes and meditating on it.

Laci (00:53:23):

But the mannerisms, I’m just like… It’s not like it’s the makeup that made him need to lick and do all those things. It’s like that was fully thought out of and the timing, it’s just all so natural. It happens when it should happen. It happens at the same time every time that he’s making a syllable that would make him do that or framing a though. It’s a tick and it’s doing something that is practical because of what’s happening with his spit.

Matt (00:53:54):

Yeah, you’d ask, all right, I have these scars that are likely on the inside of my mouth too. What are the implications

Laci (00:54:00):

Of that? We talk to everyone, including… What is it like, Laci, when you have ulcers on the inside of your mouth? Well, I talk a little bit like an asshole.

Matt (00:54:10):

Also, there’s something about the metaphor of working behind the mask and from within a mask. It always gives you the license to do whatever you want.

Laci (00:54:17):

And the idea to have him and that a Joker can spring up from anywhere and that inside of all chaos is Joker and inside of all regular day there’s Joker. I just love that he just keeps… By the time there’s a man in a police truck that refuses to speak and he’s the driver, I’m convinced it’s the Joker, even though I see the Joker in a whole other fucking vehicle. I’m like, no, somehow it’s him because why isn’t he speaking?

Matt (00:54:42):

He’s totally unmoored you from anything that you know or understand about the world. So anything’s possible.

Laci (00:54:47):

In fact, including him having a twin and I’ve already seen the prestige. Put him in that nurse’s outfit and that there’s nothing about it that’s a joke. No, he’s just in it and he feels really good in it and he’s not going to be weird about it. And it’s just like sometimes you got to wear other people’s clothes to get the job done.

Matt (00:55:08):

Yeah.

Laci (00:55:08):

I just love it.

Matt (00:55:09):

Yeah. Although that does make it funny. But because it’s a very funny performance. And

Laci (00:55:15):

He’s waiting on the last looking at his lips and he’s like… It’s like he lost his keys. He’s just aggravated for a minute.

Matt (00:55:23):

Which I’d always heard that that’s Heath improvising. Yeah. That this explosion didn’t go off like it was supposed to. I don’t know if that’s true or not. It’s

Laci (00:55:31):

Because it was really –

Matt (00:55:32):

It was practical, yeah. Here’s a list of things he included in that famous journal. So he’s just like, “I’m going to do a fucked up journal. Blend babies, landmines, AIDS, beloved pets in road accidents, statistics, brunch, the periodic table of elements.” Ledger would go on to say, “It’s the most fun I’ve ever had playing a role. I’m really surprised Chris knew that I could do it. And I don’t know how he came to cast me, but yeah, it’s the bomb. It’s definitely the most fun I’ve had and the most freedom I had.” Michael Cain said, “Haste Joker is incredible. He’s very, very scary. I turned up every month or so to do my bit, then go back to London. I turned up and had to do a bit where Batman and I watch a video done by the Joker to threaten us. I’d never seen him and he came onto television and I completely forgot my lines.

Matt (00:56:21):

I quit because it was so stunning. It was quite amazing.” Do note there, Michael Cain saying he’s in so little of this movie that he was basically brought in once a month.

Laci (00:56:32):

No, but think of how long shooting is. Just that movie that Max did this past month, it was like three weeks of shooting and we went in two days, four days apart. If they’re going to shoot a movie for three months, that makes sense for him to go home. You’re only going to do certain scenes.

Matt (00:56:53):

Of course. I’m just saying – That’s so

Laci (00:56:54):

Interesting.

Matt (00:56:55):

He’s in way, way more of Batman Begins. And I think he’s so great that he towers over my memory of this movie, but he’s in very, very little of it. And Morgan Freeman is in even less.

Laci (00:57:06):

Really? More room for Heath.

Matt (00:57:10):

So they complete filming in November of 2007 and Warner Brothers, everyone knows, everyone involved with this movie knows this fucking Joker, we got something really special here. So they have built an entire marketing campaign around The Joker, but in an unusual way. First, they put out Harvey Dent posters with Aaron Eckhart’s face. Vote for Harvey Dent. And they leave some Joker cards in comic books with a URL that says, I believe in harveydent2.com. You go to that website and you will se the Harvey Dent poster, but it’s defaced. And then that same poster has this weird puzzle that people on the internet get together and sol, and it eventually reveals the first ever image of the Heath Ledger Joker. So people are like, “Oh my God, brokeback joker. No, this rules. This is so cool.” And it turns into this big online collaborative game that everybody participates in and discusses to learn more about the movie.

Matt (00:58:13):

Variety player one. It’s like one of the most successful examples of –

Laci (00:58:17):

Gorilla marketing? Nah. Viral marketing?

Matt (00:58:20):

A viral marketing mixed with MMOR or –

Laci (00:58:24):

Yes. The thing I was trying to explain one day about what our kid likes to watch.

Matt (00:58:29):

Right.

Laci (00:58:29):

It’s a fake reality treated as real on the internet.

Matt (00:58:35):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is probably whenever they try it again, this is the campaign they’re trying to recreate is the Dark Knight.

Laci (00:58:41):

Who’s done that?

Matt (00:58:41):

Whenever they try to do it. Who? I don’t remeber, but they definitely keep trying to do it. If so much – The

Laci (00:58:46):

Fucking

Matt (00:58:47):

Owl? I don’t have time to list them.

Laci (00:58:49):

Wow.

Matt (00:58:49):

I’m going to read now from why so serious Warner Brothers use of the Joker in Marketing The Dark Knight by Kim Alkarski. “The next major events in this game were launched at 2007 Comic-Con. Though there was no panel for the feature film, a number of activities for The Dark Knight were evident at the annual convention. Individuals with Joker style makeup on their faces handed out over 10,000 vandalized dollar bills to attendees with while defaced Uncle Sam posters around the convention center included a date, time and location for potential recruits to congregate and learn more about becoming a henchman for the Joker.”

Laci (00:59:22):

It’s like anything is corruptible and all things are corrupted.

Matt (00:59:26):

Even Comic-Con.

Laci (00:59:28):

Even Uncle Sam, especially. Especially Uncle Sam. Especially Uncle Sam.

Matt (00:59:33):

At the appointed time, hundreds of willing participants met at that location and saw five jets write a phone number in the sky. Jesus Christ.

Laci (00:59:40):

Okay.

Matt (00:59:41):

Players who called the number heard a conversation between two of the Joker’s henchmen that revealed a code to be entered on whysoserious.com. The joker wants you to enter a code on the website. Once the code was entered, players were given instructions for a scavenger hunt around San Diego before they coul Begin the hunt, they had to put makeup on their faces like The Joker with the provided materials. Their goal was to keep a step ahead of Gotham City Police who were eagerly searching for The Joker. Over 650,000 unique participants online helped the scavenger hunt participants by answering clues along the route.” It went on and on and on like that all year. And then in December of 2007, the movie I Am Legend plays in theaters, the Will Smith Vampire movie. And before it, the full six minute bank robbery sequence shot entirely in IMAX.

Laci (01:00:34):

What?

Matt (01:00:35):

Which culminates with the big reveal of Heath Ledger pulling off his mask makes you stranger. And people are throwing their comment at the movie screens like, oh my God. What a

Laci (01:00:45):

Decision to give people six minutes of it.

Matt (01:00:49):

Which Nolan did again with The Dark Knight Rises. Take your big six minute opening sequence and just show it to everybody. So all this to say, the entire marketing campaign is built around the Joker. And then January 2008, Heath Ledger’s found dead. In his Manhattan apartment by his housekeeper, he was 28 years old. Now his housekeeper then calls Heath Ledger’s girlfriend Mary Kate Olson.

Laci (01:01:12):

Shut the fuck

Matt (01:01:13):

Up. You know this? No. Yeah.

Laci (01:01:15):

Wow. I’m going to watch it. It takes two tonight.

Matt (01:01:21):

She was in – How did

Laci (01:01:21):

Mary Kate feel?

Matt (01:01:23):

She was in LA happy. She’s like the joker. What do you mean? Wait,

Laci (01:01:27):

Ashley or Mary Kate?

Matt (01:01:28):

Mary Kate.

Laci (01:01:29):

Oh, then how did Ashley feel? Who was she dating? Joaquin Phoenix.

Matt (01:01:32):

Joaquin Phoenix. Now, Mary Kate was in LA at the time, so she called her New York security private security guard to go to the apartment whereupon the guard called 911. There’s been lots of conspiracies online about this of like, why is she calling? It’s literally, it happens in the movie. This isn’t going to 911. It’s a private number.

Laci (01:01:53):

Well, why doesn’t the housekeeper –

Matt (01:01:56):

To me, this all makes a lot of sense. Language barrier. Of like, oh fuck.

Laci (01:02:00):

Yeah, this isn’t for me to tell. Right.This seems private.

Matt (01:02:04):

And maybe the housekeeper calls the girlfriend, the girlfriend’s freaking out and just like, let me call somebody who can go see what’s actually going on.

Laci (01:02:13):

Well, and someone who’s going to tell you what’s going on, you want to know. I can’t get there. A police officer’s going to take over and you’re not priority anymore. I mean, not that you should be, but I get it.

Matt (01:02:23):

But then the security guard calls 911 when he gets there.

Laci (01:02:25):

Right.

Matt (01:02:26):

So he had said in interviews, Heath Ledger did, that he’d always suffered from insomnia, particularly during filming. His ex – girlfriend, Michelle Williams, his co-star from Brokeback, said she knew how much trouble he had with insomnia, especially when he was acting, when he was actively shooting a movie. His mind just was just fucking racing. He couldn’t turn it off. This was all roles, not just the joker. The medical examiner a few weeks later ruled that an accidental overdose.

Laci (01:02:57):

What was the-

Matt (01:02:58):

The AP recorded at the time, “The actor Heath Ledger died from an accidental overdose of six different drugs, painkillers and sedatives. The medical examiner said Wednesday leading doctors to warn of the dangers of mixing prescription drugs. The 28-year-old film star died of acute intoxication from the combination of two strong painkillers, two anti-anxiety medicines and two sleeping aids according to the medical examiner’s office among the drugs found in his body were oxycodone, a painkiller, so does Oxycontin and used another pain…” Yeah. End quote.

Laci (01:03:29):

Yeah, but you don’t get Oxycontin not using painkillers often.

Matt (01:03:33):

But he was prescribed it. I mean, this is –

Laci (01:03:36):

Just because it’s a prescription drug doesn’t mean he was prescribed it.

Matt (01:03:39):

Okay.

Laci (01:03:40):

Oxycontin you buy on the street all the time.

Matt (01:03:42):

I know. It’s just the reason I included all of this is Laci and I were talking and she said, “Didn’t he kill himself?” And I said –

Laci (01:03:48):

I just misremembered.

Matt (01:03:49):

Yeah.

Laci (01:03:51):

It just feels so tragic and sad that I think I add another layer of sadness on top.

Matt (01:03:57):

Right. And I think that the character’s so fucked up that people make the connection, oh, it drove him to do these drugs. But

Laci (01:04:05):

Actually he was having a lot of fun.

Matt (01:04:08):

And maybe it did drive him or the way he did his roles, something like this was inevitable.

Laci (01:04:15):

It just seems like he should have reached out to production and just been like, “Sometimes I might need another day because I can’t fall asleep. I literally have to just be completely…” I mean, it’s like at that point, get a fucking Michael Jackson doctor just while you’re shooting to carefully put you to sleep if it’s that bad.

Matt (01:04:35):

And this is one of those celebrity deaths I remember finding out and just be like, “Holy shit, that doesn’t seem possible.” Yeah, it doesn’t

Laci (01:04:39):

Even seem like that person could die.

Matt (01:04:43):

Among other things, Warner Brothers now has to completely shift away from its marketing campaign that was focused on The Joker.

Laci (01:04:48):

Had they already been running it for a year?

Matt (01:04:50):

Yeah, but it’s still like the plan is we start summer of 07 culminating in the movie coming out in summer of 08. We’re at the halfway point. Now we have to shift gears. So they emphasize Harvey Dent at this point.

Laci (01:05:01):

Poor fucking…

Matt (01:05:04):

Bruce Wayne. Christian Bale. He’s already got his movie.

Laci (01:05:09):

Look how bad The Office, all three jokers are present and got it. Forgot how bad Dwayne looks.

Matt (01:05:17):

Dwight.

Laci (01:05:17):

Dwight.

Matt (01:05:19):

Movie comes out July 18th, 2008. The reviews are rapturous with Heath Ledger getting most of the praise Manola Dargas wrote in the New York Times. Ledger’s Joker is a creature of such ghastly life. The performance is so visceral, creepy and insistently present that the characterization pulls you in almost at once. This movie’s a sensation beyond all expectations. People return again and again and again to see it. It becomes the biggest opening. Its opening is the biggest any movie’s ever had. Goes on to make a billion dollars, surpasses Titanics to become the biggest movie of all time. This blew my mind and hurt my feelings because I didn’t like it and I liked Titanic and I liked Star Wars. How dare the Dark Knight past those movies? Fear. But The Joker is the dominant thing to come out of the movie. And I know everyone knows The Joker is a big deal, but if you weren’t around in 2008 or you don’t remember, this was everywhere.

Matt (01:06:14):

This took over culture.

Laci (01:06:15):

Also, people might have just been really happy that they killed Maggie Gyllenhaal.

Matt (01:06:18):

That was another thing is people

Laci (01:06:20):

Finally –

Matt (01:06:20):

She was

Laci (01:06:21):

Being weird. I was like, what is wrong with her? I think she just seems like a real person. She’s kind of ticky, kind of wiggly kind of.

Matt (01:06:30):

I think this character just sucks.

Laci (01:06:32):

There’s nothing for her to do. She’s like, I believe in belief and in the justice –

Matt (01:06:37):

Harvey.

Laci (01:06:39):

I’m going to literally date any prosecutor you put in front of me.

Matt (01:06:43):

Harvey, I was going to have to deliver the briefs myself. You can’t just flip a coin Harvey. But I think that aside from the performance, the things that he is saying I think really resonate with people. Some men just watch the wild bun, I think is the way you dismiss it. But he is saying you think you live in a world with rules. You think you live in a society that’s going to protect you. But in 2008, we’ve lived through nine eleven. We’ve lived through the Iraq war. We lived through stolen elections. Katrina, yeah. City fucking floods. You think the government’s coming to help you? No way.

Laci (01:07:22):

Right. My boob job.

Matt (01:07:23):

Laci’s poop job.

Laci (01:07:24):

I got it from the government.

Matt (01:07:25):

This is

Laci (01:07:26):

Not where the fun should have gone.

Matt (01:07:27):

I disagree. As this movie happens, the economy is collapsing forever. Right

Laci (01:07:33):

2008. Yep.

Matt (01:07:34):

And so if people are just picking it up, he’s vocalizing something they innately understand. You don’t actually live in a society – That’s here to protect you. That’s going to save you. Yes. We say there are rules. We say we have law and order and the rule of law. No, we don’t.

Laci (01:07:52):

The closest they get to happy sunshine, everything, the people, the humanity’s good is the fairy thing where no one wants to blow

Matt (01:07:59):

Up anyone. It rings so false to me.

Laci (01:08:00):

But it is touching in a movie full of things devoid of touching.

Matt (01:08:06):

It’s touching because of Tiny Lister. That’s the only thing that’s touching about it. I think it’s stupid. True. I hate it. I like him. I think he’s great. In the aftermath, in the years ahead, the Heath Ledger joker gets appropriated as a right wing symbol. This ascendant 4chan young male incel alt right cohort.

Laci (01:08:28):

Life isn’t giving me all the things I though white men were supposed to have, so I’m just going to get crazy.

Matt (01:08:33):

So now then in response to that, every cultural writer has to write about what is The Joker? What does it say about us that we love The Joker? Is it even responsible for people to make movies and tell stories about The Joker? Aren’t they contributing to this decline, et cetera, et cetera? And of course, When The Dark Knight Rises premieres in 2012 at a midnight screening, a man dressed as The Joker shoots people in a movie theater. Update an important correction. The Aurora, Colorado shooter did not dress as The Joker, never called himself The Joker. This is apparently a widely held misconception. And I’m going to read now from Vanity Fair, Johanna Desta in 2019. Her article is titled The Joker Didn’t Inspire the Aurora Shooter, but the Rumor Won’t Go Away. And the writer details where this rumor came from, why it took off.

Matt (01:09:27):

Apparently it’s attributed to the police commissioner of New York City, Ray Kelly, who was giving a press conference, a press conference talking about a crime that happened in Colorado on the other side of the country. And at this news conference, he said, that guy dressed up as the joker and said, I am the joker. So now I’m going to read from the article where it’s quoting, the Colorado district attorney who prosecuted the shooter. It never happened. Said George Braukler, the Colorado district attorney who prosecuted the shooter, citing Kelly as the source of the rumor. Brackler and other Colorado officials have attempted to clarify for years that the shooter never referred to himself as the joker. The story has persisted, Brackler said, because it fits the narrative so cleanly. Brackler says, of course, the crazy hair colored guy who shot up the Batman premier thought he was the joker.

Matt (01:10:17):

Of course, Brackler added, and yet it has no connection to reality. Glad I looked into this before publishing this episode. I did not want to be part of continuing to spread this misinformation. The shooter in Colorado in 2012 did not dress up as the joker. And I think this ties into what Laci and I go on to talk about, which is that art. When we blame art for things that happen in the real world for real world crimes, we are looking at the wrong targets. Okay, back to the episode. So when in 2019, Todd Phillips and Joaquin Phoenix make their Joker movie, there’s legitimate concern from I think really idiotic cultural critics who think this is irresponsible of you.

Laci (01:11:04):

Okay, that’s dumb. But if it did happen twice, you would feel really fucking guilty as the people, but you shouldn’t not make art because one asshole.

Matt (01:11:14):

I’m not responsible for the fact that people can get guns in this country.

Laci (01:11:18):

And Marilyn Manson isn’t the reason that the fucking Columbine happened. It’s just

Matt (01:11:22):

As random as that.

Laci (01:11:23):

And

Matt (01:11:23):

Poison and rat and whitesnake weren’t responsible

Laci (01:11:27):

In the 80s for kids. And what are the common denominator in those two things access to fucking guns. He showed you that. What is his access?

Matt (01:11:37):

Yeah. We’ve said it a lot. When you write about movies and pop culture for a living, you have to then say the thing I write about is the cause of things to make it seem more important than it is. I don’t think that art influences people to… I don’t think art causes these bad things in the world. I think it reflects the bad things that are going on in the world. But all of this, remember, all of this from a character created in 1940 for children’s comic books.

Laci (01:12:03):

Don’t you think Jack Nicholson’s a little bit feeling a little something like… I guess I miss the train.

Matt (01:12:08):

He made so much money from that movie I think he is thrilled.

Laci (01:12:11):

Okay.

Matt (01:12:13):

Good question. I should have looked up. What did Jack Nicholson have to say?

Laci (01:12:17):

Do you feel left out of dark joker moment?

Matt (01:12:36):

So like the previous movie, we get no opening title, just get the bat formation, but this time the whole color of the palette of the movie. Laci, what color palette is it? It’s

Laci (01:12:45):

Probably just gray.

Matt (01:12:46):

It’s blue. Blue. Everything’s blue.Like

Laci (01:12:48):

Back the Blue like that?

Matt (01:12:50):

I think so. Bat the blue.

Laci (01:12:52):

Bat the blue.

Matt (01:12:53):

We get all these aerial shots of Chicago. This movie is so much more grounded in a place than Batman begins. Hey, like Heath. There’s no more… The Narrows is lost. 10 million people born.

Laci (01:13:04):

Not The

Matt (01:13:04):

Narrows. Now we live in Chicago eating sassages all the time. But this opening bank robbery sequence, I mean, this didn’t give you heat vibes. You weren’t getting the heat. Okay. The Joker gang.

Laci (01:13:20):

I’ve seen bank robberies. All of them getting shot one by one was very interesting.

Matt (01:13:27):

And when you, maybe even the first time you see it, you can tell which one’s Heath Ledger, but the second time you see it, the camera makes very clear. This is him that the camera zooms in on the street. He can’t miss that posture. Or he puts on his mask. And he’s the one who’s not talking.

Laci (01:13:45):

And Heath Ledger, he’s a tall person, right? Over six foot.

Matt (01:13:48):

Why do you think they call him the Joker? Why do you think he wears all that makeup? And they’re stealing from this bank and William Finkner’s there and he’s there because he’s also in heat and he’s mad that… You know who you’re stealing from? Because he’s a mob. This is a mob bank. And how dare these guys steal from the mob bank? But right away, a huge problem I have with this movie that even Laci and Max were commenting on is the editing. Things will cut and you will get no sense of how much time passes. It is a problem because even in little things like they’re loading all the money into duffel bags and then instantly the duffel bags are right in front of the bus.

Laci (01:14:27):

I don’t even know if the robbery was successful. Someone’s shooting at you. All of your backup is dead, but someone’s driving a bus for you. No one saw that bus go in. There’s no reaction from the crowd. It just seems whatever.

Matt (01:14:40):

And this is all a choice. I mean, he wants this all to be frenetic and have just this propulsion like, okay, we’re just moving so fast through time. It was Chris Caban from We Hate Movies who pointed this out. And I felt this way since I saw this movie in theaters and felt like the editing’s confusing to me is he’s just so adicted to cutting early.

Laci (01:14:59):

As if it saves something for later at least. It makes it always leave them wanting more. It’s like stitched to a pillow and a sofa. But

Matt (01:15:06):

It’s so important that when something happens, you need to sit there. Connect,

Laci (01:15:10):

To connect, to connect. I need to be able to understand the next thing that I’m seeing if the movie wants me to understand it. And I think he does want you to understand. Yeah.

Matt (01:15:18):

So don’t

Laci (01:15:18):

Make it… Right. Yeah. But

Matt (01:15:20):

What he doesn’t seem to… Or his editor didn’t understand, and I don’t know enough about editing to know who’s making these decisions. Is it Nolan or is it his editor? Is something happens and we don’t need to sit with it and feel it. Or we don’t need to see how the characters feel about it or whatever. Just onto the next thing.

Laci (01:15:38):

Okay with that. I don’t need too many people scared in a bank robbery scene. That always really bothers me. I don’t need to sit with the fear and all that. I just need to see the general outcome of did they get the money? Did they kill anyone in the process? Those are the two things. I think tell me what this movie’s going to be about.

Matt (01:15:55):

Finkner is on the ground. They shot him and he’s yelling at the clowns and he’s like, “Criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor, respect. What do you believe in? ” And this is where Ledger reveals himself. “I believe that whatever doesn’t kill you simply makes you and he takes off his mask. Stranger. “And then he escapes on a school bus and goes into a line of school buses. And our kid said,” That is so smart.

Laci (01:16:23):

Highly unlikely to have timed such a thing and yet fine.

Matt (01:16:29):

This

Laci (01:16:29):

Joker’s connected as fuck.

Matt (01:16:31):

There’s a little news segment where the… Yes.

Laci (01:16:35):

Do they mean to make this guy look just like the fucking Pinky Blinders Oppenheimer guy? It is the Pinky Blinders opener. Okay, because later when they arrest the guy looks like your friend Patrick. I’m like, “Is that the same one?” Is

Matt (01:16:46):

That Patrick in this movie? Not Patrick. No, Killian Murphy is in this movie as Scarecrow. Oh,

Laci (01:16:50):

Right. He puts on the fucking thing on his thing.

Matt (01:16:52):

But I love that he’s been brought so low now. He’s just like a street level drug dealer. He didn’t like my drugs. No, we didn’t. We want to buy drugs that people want to use. Not that it’ll fucking terrify them. My business rely on repeat customer. But there’s this news segment where the mayor of Gotham, Mayor Garcia, Nestor Carbonell, is talking about how the MCU, they keep saying MCU in this one. Oh yeah. The major crimes unit, that’s Gordon’s team. They’re cleaning up the city and we see Gordon in front of the bat signal talking to Ramirez, this cop, this woman cop. And he says, “How’s your mother doing?” And she says, “Had to put her back in the hospital.” And you’re like, “Huh?” I wonder

Laci (01:17:37):

Why they’re talking about that.

Matt (01:17:38):

Why are they talking about that? Okay. So the scarecrow is meeting with the Chechen and his big dogs and suddenly there’s Batman. Batman’s showing up at the meeting and one of them has a gun and Laci said, “It’s so weird to see Batman hold a gun.” I didn’t

Laci (01:17:55):

Know it wasn’t the real

Matt (01:17:55):

Batman. And then the real Batman shows up and squishes the gun and does a bunch of Batman shit. And they ask him like, “Why can’t we be Batman like you? It’s

Laci (01:18:05):

The money.” His

Matt (01:18:06):

Voice has gotten so much more annoying in this. The Batman voice more annoying in this movie, I think. I

Laci (01:18:12):

Don’t know. Similarly. I don’t know.

Matt (01:18:15):

Now over at the bank, they’re going through all the money that was stolen. They’ve done some sort of sting thing where Bruce Wayne as the billionaire is able to give them all this cash and they can irradiate it so they can track it. And Gordon tells him about… I’ve watched this movie three times in a week and there’s still parts of the plot I’m confused about. That they have this plan to simultaneously confiscate money at five different banks that the mob uses for money laundering. That this is Batman’s plan. And Gordon says, “I don’t know. I think maybe we need to focus on The Joker.” And Batman’s like, “No, no, no, no. The mobs. I’m a mob Batman.That’s what I go after is mobs. Yes.

Laci (01:19:00):

And then it’s successful because I thought the Chinese… Is he Chinese? He

Matt (01:19:08):

Is.

Laci (01:19:09):

Lao. That Lao ends up with all that money. No,

Matt (01:19:12):

Because when the police move in, the money’s already been moved. So if you’ll recall, Wayne Manner was destroyed in the last movie and Bruce is like, ” I’m going to personally rebuild this mansion myself. “Brick boy, brick. As we see, his progress is slow. Instead, he’s down there in his new bat cave looking at computer screens playing Mind Sweeper. And Alfred comes down and he’s like, ” Oh, but nice one way, man is rebuilt. “And that’s very helpful of him to remind us of that. And he asks him like, ” What the fuck happened to you? “And he’s like, ” I got hit by a dog.

Laci (01:19:49):

“I was hit by a dog going 50 miles an hour. Man, they are not concerned with animal rights people in this movie. They’re just throwing dogs.

Matt (01:19:59):

We have to imagine they’re not real dogs that they’re throwing. I

Laci (01:20:02):

Know, but does he just even see Batman

Matt (01:20:05):

Committing

Laci (01:20:05):

Animal

Matt (01:20:06):

Cruelty? It was that are attacking him. You’re like, just let him Batman, just let him. I don’t mean

Laci (01:20:10):

That. I mean later in the movie where he sees a dog and he just throws it off a fucking balcony. He’s not trying to incapacitate the dog. He’s trying to kill it.

Matt (01:20:17):

That dog was attacking him. But no, I agree.

Laci (01:20:19):

It’s just

Matt (01:20:19):

Wild. I think like Batman, that’s beneath you. I though you didn’t kill.

Laci (01:20:24):

Are animals not deserving of your rule?

Matt (01:20:27):

What do you think about that

Laci (01:20:28):

Man? Well, I mean, I think they’re showing you here like, look, you think you have rules. Where does your line? That animal is someone’s pet. And that counts as a real life to a lot of people. So just because it’s not your though on animals.

Matt (01:20:45):

So Bruce is complaining about all these copycats he’s running into out in the world and Alfred’s like, “You said you wanted to inspire people. ” And he’s like, “That’s not what I meant.”

Laci (01:20:53):

Boy. God, Alfred.

Matt (01:20:56):

But again –

Laci (01:20:57):

It doesn’t matter what you meant.

Matt (01:20:58):

We can’t keep harping on this, but what did you mean then? What did you want to happen? He

Laci (01:21:02):

Doesn’t know. And that’s the point. It doesn’t matter what you meant. You put something into the world and people are reacting to it. You don’t get to decide what happens after you do the thing.

Matt (01:21:12):

That’s not what I meant by I wanted to inspire. You

Laci (01:21:15):

Lied. You’re fucking it all up.

Matt (01:21:18):

So Alfred’s like, “Ah, but things are looking up Master Wayne. After all, what about our new district attorney? Speaking of whom? Let’s go meet our district attorney. Erin Eckhardt is Harvey Dent. Oh, hey, Maggie Gyllenhaal has replaced Katie Holmes as Rachel Dawes.”

Laci (01:21:36):

I think it’s a good choice, but I don’t find Maggie Gyllenhaal distracting and I find the other one Katie Holmes distracting.

Matt (01:21:44):

I agree. Katie Holmes is distracting because it’s – She’s

Laci (01:21:47):

Cutesy. I don’t like the way she talks. I don’t like the way she puts things. She’s too precious. Maggie Gyllen Hall seems normal.

Matt (01:21:53):

Maggie Gyllenhaal has given dozens of performances that I’ve loved. This one feels… And maybe it’s because she’s trying to play the same character Katie Holmes played. So she’s trying to be a little cutesy too and it’s just not working. And I’ll tell you what, she has no chemistry with Christian Bale. None. She’s a little bit with Eckhardt. What do you think of Aaron Eckhardt?

Laci (01:22:11):

I like him. As soon as I said the butt chin, I’m like, am I supposed to like this guy? He’s got a villain in his chin, but he grows on you. I don’t know. What else has he been in?

Matt (01:22:22):

Thank you for smoking.

Laci (01:22:23):

Oh yeah. Yeah. I like him.

Matt (01:22:25):

He is someone who also was supposed to be a big movie star.

Laci (01:22:30):

What’s his name now? Did happen to become, and he looks a lot like him. Blonde is in everything. He’s really good at acting.

Matt (01:22:39):

A good actor?

Laci (01:22:40):

Come on, man. Just name the top five actors getting parts right now. You’re pissing me off.

Matt (01:22:46):

Glen Powell.

Laci (01:22:47):

Jesus. Yes. Thank you. Doesn’t he? Why am I asking you? Fuck’s sake.

Matt (01:22:53):

The scuttlebutt on Aaron Eckhart is that he’s a difficult man to work with. Now –

Laci (01:22:57):

What does that mean thogh? In what way?

Matt (01:22:59):

I mean, Christian Bale seems like a difficult man, but apparently this guy seems like an actual nightmare. To be around.

Laci (01:23:07):

Okay.

Matt (01:23:08):

This was his big movie. This was the big thing. Something about the way he looks. I worked for an attorney who I can only say is like, you’re like a Looney Tunes lawyer. You look like if a lawyer was depicted in Looney Tunes, just like exaggerated features. So

Laci (01:23:25):

Does that mob guy over there. Jesus, look

Matt (01:23:28):

At him. Eric Roberts, Julia’s brother as Maroni, the big mob bad in this movie. Julia Roberts’ brother, Eric Roberts.

Laci (01:23:37):

Tut your mouth. They don’t have the same fucking plastic surgeon.

Matt (01:23:41):

So damn.

Laci (01:23:43):

Yeah, got him.

Matt (01:23:44):

So Harvey Dent comes into the, with his enormous cock struts into the courtroom and he’s like, “I’m the district attorney, everybody. Fuck you. ” With

Laci (01:23:52):

His full cock.

Matt (01:23:54):

And Maggie’s like, “Harvey, I was waiting for you. ” And he does his tell you what? You know the briefs in and out, maybe you’ll do it. Let’s flip for it. And she’s like, “You can’t leave that the chance of the coin flip.”

Laci (01:24:08):

How many times a day do you think he does this fucking bit?

Matt (01:24:11):

That’s what I wrote in my notes. Is this the first time he’s ever done it to her? No, he did. To

Laci (01:24:15):

Go on a date because he knew we’d land on heads.

Matt (01:24:17):

But she’s acting like I’ve never… You can’t do that.

Laci (01:24:20):

No, she’s just saying you can’t leave it a chance. She doesn’t know it’s a two headed coin.

Matt (01:24:24):

Yeah. I make my own luck, baby. And so he’s interrogating a witness who’s going to spill the beans on Maroney, but instead the guy’s like, “Maroni, he’s a Patsy. I’m the real brains of the operation. And speaking of brains, I’m going to shoot you in your brains dent.” And he pulls out a gun and dent just grabs it from him and punches the brain. You can’t bring these in

Laci (01:24:44):

Court.

Matt (01:24:45):

And punches the guy in the face and the courthouse erupts. Like this guy fucking rules. Oh my God.

Laci (01:24:50):

I don’t know. I think I might do the same thing

Matt (01:24:52):

In that situation. Yes. And so Harvey and Rachel are leaving and she’s like, “Oh my God, you scared them up so much. It’s crazy. They’re trying to kill you. ” And she’s like, “Maybe we could take the rest of the day off and go to a motel.” And he’s like, “No, I have to go meet with the head of the MCU.” And this line reading has always been weird to me. Oh, Jim Gordon? He’s a friend. Be nice.

Laci (01:25:22):

Right. So is he not normally nice to people?

Matt (01:25:27):

I think it’s, I don’t know. It’s like, ooh, prosecutors and cops. Maybe

Laci (01:25:31):

He assumes cops are all crooked in this town. So maybe she’s like, “No, Gordon’s a good one.”

Matt (01:25:35):

That is it because he does have the whole… And because he comes from Internal Affairs where his job was investigating dirty cops. This movie’s idea of what makes a cop dirty? Well, in this movie it’s that they’re getting paid by the mob. It’s not shooting unarmed teens. It’s not fabricating evidence. Well, it is

Laci (01:25:54):

Those things if that’s what’s need.

Matt (01:25:56):

But those aren’t the things that happen in this movie. Fine.

Laci (01:25:58):

But you’re taking bribes from the mob so that you can make sure the mob doesn’t get in trouble. I’m sure that is all kinds of things.

Matt (01:26:05):

I know. And I know that this movie isn’t the real world. It’s just that it’s like Batman Gids. It’s asking me to take it seriously. So I’m bringing my understanding of the real world and applying it here and saying, “I don’t care if cops are getting paid by the mob. I care about cops shooting unarmed teens and fabricating evidence, planting drugs, all the shit that we know they do all the time.” Or which they show later in the movie, and I don’t think they mean to show it like this when shots ring out at the cop parade. All the cops just scatter in fear, which is what actually happens to real cops when they get in danger. They’re like, “Oh God.”

Laci (01:26:38):

I hope there’s someone here that can help.

Matt (01:26:40):

So Harvey has his meeting with Gary Oldman. I love this sparse… All these government offices just have huge windows to show this downtown Chicago. But Harvey is very suspicious of Gordon’s unit because they’re doing all this fancy stuff with irradiated bills. And he investigated a lot of Gordon’s cops when he worked at Internal Affairs. He doesn’t trust them. But Gordon’s like, “Well, you should trust my guys. They’re good guys.” And he’s like, “Fine, I’ll give you your warrants. You’re doing that whole thing where you’re going for… “

Laci (01:27:09):

Five banks.

Matt (01:27:10):

Five banks. And I know you’re working with Batman.

Laci (01:27:13):

Because military grade shiny money.

Matt (01:27:17):

Yeah. And he’s like, “My official position is that I don’t know anything about the Batman.” And he’s like –

Laci (01:27:22):

But if you want to meet him, he takes a nap on Thursdays at 2:15.

Matt (01:27:25):

And he’s like, “Fine, I’ll give you your warrants, but I want you to trust me. ” And what he means by that is like, “I want to meet

Laci (01:27:31):

The Batman. I want

Matt (01:27:32):

In. I want to meet Batman.” Okay. And he’s like, “Dent, you don’t have to sell me. I know you’re Gotham’s White Knight.” And this whole movie hinges on this guy needs to be such a good guy that everything could come crashing down.

Laci (01:27:51):

The movie’s called The Dark Knight. Why does that sound familiar?

Matt (01:27:56):

That society would crumble to its knees if it found out that this guy’s not a good guy. Does that work for you?

Laci (01:28:03):

I don’t fucking know. I mean, everything is corrupt in this town. This town, there’s only one uncorrupted thing, but it seems just as important that Batman not be corrupted either. So why should he… I think that would bring just as much to my knees.

Matt (01:28:21):

Hey, name the district attorney of New Orleans right now. Go ahead.

Laci (01:28:24):

Condoleezza Rice.

Matt (01:28:25):

How many people are… You got lucky, okay? No, how many people know the fucking district attorney of… I know if you live in New York, you probably do, but it’s just like this is not what people are thinking about. Also, the mafia’s always existed and it’s like that’s just a part of things. There’s just a

Laci (01:28:40):

Little mafia. They just got to grow up. You’re just taking away the old people mafia. It’s still

Matt (01:28:45):

There. He kept the neighborhood safe. He took care of the place.

Laci (01:28:48):

Right. We used to get free smokes. Now this, I got to pay for him.

Matt (01:28:53):

There is this meeting with Mr. Lau, the Chinese businessman at Wayne Enterprises and there’s this accountant or no, he’s a mergers and acquisitions lawyer who’s there because Wayne Enterprises and Lao’s company might be doing some sort of transaction. And he’s run all the numbers and he goes up to… Well, first, Mr. Lau is giving a speech to the board and Bruce Wayne’s sleeping. And our kid was like, “Why is he doing that? ” And I said, “You got to understand, he has to pretend like he’s this Playboy, but he can’t be bothered to pay attention at work.” And Max said, “So that no one will think he’s Batman?” Batman works at

Laci (01:29:29):

Night.

Matt (01:29:30):

If Batman paid attention in meetings, then we… No, if Bruce Wayne paid attention in meetings, then we’d be like, “Oh, maybe he’s Batman.”

Laci (01:29:37):

Right.

Matt (01:29:38):

Oh my God. But yeah, if he’s sleeping in meetings, you’re like, “Why is he so tired all the time?” He’s up all

Laci (01:29:41):

Night.

Matt (01:29:42):

What’s he doing all the time? Well, he’s doing Coke and hookers. So

Laci (01:29:44):

He should be awake.

Matt (01:29:46):

Anyway, astute observation from our child.

Laci (01:29:50):

Thank you, child.

Matt (01:29:52):

But yeah, this M&A lawyer reviewing the numbers, he’s like, “I’ve run the numbers. They’re solid.” And Morgan Freeman, who is now a member, The CEO of Wayne Enterprises, because that’s what you want is your guy who does all your Batman gear to also be the CEO. Face

Laci (01:30:07):

Of the company.

Matt (01:30:09):

Not a demanding job at all. Hey, drop all the CEO job and come down to the basement with me. But Morgan Freeman says to the guy, “Run the numbers again. See what you find.”

Laci (01:30:21):

See, he’s not even a good CEO. Look what you did now, Morgan Freeman.

Matt (01:30:24):

This is the same thing that happens in Insomnia. I just, for all you insomnia people who watch that movie –

Laci (01:30:30):

God forbid I see that for myself

Matt (01:30:33):

Is –

Laci (01:30:33):

What’s next week’s movie?

Matt (01:30:35):

Inception.

Laci (01:30:36):

Oh, that’s what I meant. Those two movies are the same thing to me.

Matt (01:30:40):

Well, there’s a moment in Insomnia where Hillary Swank is playing this cop who has to investigate the shooting of Al Pacino’s partner and Al Pacino’s the one who shot his partner, but she doesn’t know that. And she’s like, “Mr. Al Pacino, here’s my official report saying that everything you said happened went down exactly as you said. Can you sign off on it? ” And he inexplicably is like, “Why don’t you take another look at everything?” Because he’s got this like he wants to get caught. He feels so guilty. He could have gotten away with it right there. And it’s interesting that the same thing happens right here is for no reason, I mean, something compels the guy to say, look at the numbers again and it will create a problem later on. I

Laci (01:31:19):

Don’t know if it’s guilt and wanting to get caught.

Matt (01:31:21):

I know it’s not that, but it’s something.

Laci (01:31:23):

That’s something.

Matt (01:31:24):

There is a American Psycho sequence where they go to the restaurant and Harvey Dent and Maggie Gyllenhaal are having a dinner.

Laci (01:31:33):

I appreciate that they give his date just as much shit to talk about. I love that. Like, okay, this feels much more real. Okay. She’s not just a fucking armpiece.

Matt (01:31:43):

He shows up with this rush. She’s the prima ballerina. And just saying, I know that’s a real phrase, but when you say it, it feels like you’re making fun of her. She’s the prima ballerina. And so what do they talk about, Laci?

Laci (01:31:55):

They’re talking about the efficacy of having a Batman. Is this the right thing for the city? Is he any better than these crooks? And this is where Harvey didn’t prove himself. And ooh man, Batman’s getting such a big old bat dick. Yeah,

Matt (01:32:09):

Because Bruce is doing the man who dresses up as a bat. I don’t know about that. And Dent is like, no, Batman is the symbol we need. He’s saying all the things that Bruce Wayne believes about himself. And the camera shows Christian Bale being like –

Laci (01:32:22):

That’s the happiest Christian Bale is in this tar series.

Matt (01:32:24):

Yeah. Little heart-shaped heart pounding out of… This is what I’m

Laci (01:32:30):

Trying to do. We could be best friends maybe.

Matt (01:32:32):

They’re like, but what about the rule of law and democracy? And he says in ancient Rome… Harvey Dent says, “In ancient Rome, they would appoint a guardian of the city and suspend democracy until the crisis was averted.” And Rachel’s like, “But Harvey, the man they gave the power to was Caesar and he never gave it back.” And he says, “Okay, you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.” I was shocked to learn that line was invented for this movie. That’s good. Written by Jonathan Nolan. And Christopher confessed later on, I didn’t know what he meant by that.

Laci (01:33:08):

How?

Matt (01:33:09):

I don’t know, but he said he was surprised when it became the lives of the movement.

Laci (01:33:12):

Well, it’s the same thing as absolute power corrupts absolutely. That’s all it means.

Matt (01:33:16):

But it becomes a thing that Nolan later becomes obsessed with in Oppenheimer. That’s what the second half of Oppenheimer is about.

Laci (01:33:25):

Heroes are given power and access and money. And those three things also corrupt you. The saying I just said, it’s just that.

Matt (01:33:34):

And the Joker will later say a version of it to Batman. They need you right now, but they’re going to fucking cast you out as soon as they have no use for

Laci (01:33:42):

It. You can see Batman even in his stupid little outfit contemplating it a bit.

Matt (01:33:46):

Yeah. But whatever it is about that idea really appeals to Nolan if he thinks me being such a weirdo who spends all this time making my puzzle movies when they stop liking my puzzle movies, they’re

Laci (01:33:59):

Going

Matt (01:34:00):

To kick me off the island. And that’s also the odyssey is he spends 20 years away and when he gets home, nobody even knows who he is.

Laci (01:34:07):

Spoiler alert.

Matt (01:34:09):

Dent, you’ve won me over. I’m going to throw you a fundraiser. And he’s like, well, I’m not up for a reelection in three years. And he says, no, trust me, one fundraiser with my pals, you’ll never need another cent.

Laci (01:34:21):

Okay, but what do I do with that money for three years? Like fucking advertise like y’all did this movie or?

Matt (01:34:27):

Well, I mean, and also it’s like – You want

Laci (01:34:30):

To corrupt him.

Matt (01:34:31):

So you own me then. Okay. Yeah. Like Harlan Crow for Clarence Thomas. I have a wealthy benefactor for the rest of my career. It’s a

Laci (01:34:39):

Second test. It’s like, you’ve impressed me with your words. Now let me see if you take my money.

Matt (01:34:43):

Ooh, you should turn this down, Harvey. Dumb ass. Harvey, dumbass. Yeah, but

Laci (01:34:46):

He does. I don’t really think that goes anywhere. They do the

Matt (01:34:51):

Fundraiser.

Laci (01:34:51):

It gets interrupted by the Joker.

Matt (01:34:53):

I don’t think

Laci (01:34:54):

It

Matt (01:34:54):

Goes anywhere. They never passed the collection plate?

Laci (01:34:56):

No, and he’s not into it. He doesn’t seem to even want to be there. But he’s not indicating that he’s not going to take the money, but no money has been suggested yet.

Matt (01:35:05):

No, the way those things work is you pay to attend. So he’s already got the money.

Laci (01:35:11):

Harvey, your mask is slipping.

Matt (01:35:16):

The incredible scene with the mob families assembling to watch Lao on a TV set explain to them – A tube TV. That he knew that all their banks were going to be hit at once. So he took the liberty of moving the money himself.

Laci (01:35:30):

Why do

Matt (01:35:31):

You know that? Because he has… How did he know that?

Laci (01:35:35):

A secret.

Matt (01:35:36):

A dirty cop, I guess, from the NCU. Oh, right,

Laci (01:35:39):

Right, right. Because there’s at least two in this movie.

Matt (01:35:43):

And so without their permission, he went ahead and got all their money and he’ll be safe because he’s on a plane to Hong Kong and the Chinese government will not extradite somebody from Hong Kong to America. And then the Joker comes in and does the magic trick. You want to see him? How about a magic?

Laci (01:36:01):

And he’s Gordon, right? He’s like, “We need to focus on the Batman, not the mafia.”

Matt (01:36:06):

You’re right. Yes. Let’s behind the clock back in the year. I told you

Laci (01:36:10):

Gordon’s more the joker than… He

Matt (01:36:12):

Really is. None of these cops would ever touch you. What happens? Your balls drop off. But see, Batman has shown Gotham your true colors. All you criminals. Gotham used to think you all ruled, but now he’s showed everybody that they shouldn’t like you. So we got to take care of Batman. This thing with Lao, with him taking your money, no, they’re going to come after him. Batman, he’s not bound to Gotham City. He can go to Hong Kong and get him. He’ll squeal. I know the squealers and just points. So good. So he will kill Batman. He just wants half the money.

Laci (01:36:48):

And does Dent turn on the bat signal? And then Gordon comes up rope, “You’re not supposed to play with my toy.”

Matt (01:36:57):

I know. And Batman is even like, he gets there and it’s dent and he’s like…

Laci (01:37:01):

Right, right. And look at his face, that’s mine. You don’t touch it. You don’t even know how to work it right.

Matt (01:37:06):

Because Gordon comes out with his gun drawn. What the fuck’s going on in my batman? Don’t touch my

Laci (01:37:10):

Thingy.

Matt (01:37:11):

And now the camera is souping out. I think this is really exciting. It’s swooping around the three of them and Batman is just totally receded. These guys are just yelling at each other. Guys. And he’s like, “I though this was a Batman movie. I’m kind of feeling like it’s not a Batman movie. It’s a Gordon Dent movie.” Maybe

Laci (01:37:24):

For the entire year and a half leading up to this, it’s been kind of a Heath Lodger movie.

Matt (01:37:27):

Yeah. I know. And it’s one of the interesting things that happens in this movie is the way Batman recedes so much so that the final confrontation, it’s an emotional back and forth between Aaron Eckhart and Gary Oldman. And Batman just kind of shows up and he’s like, “Harvey, no. Bye. Let the boy go. Come on. ” So now Harvey Dent is like, “Batman, I need you to go to Hong Kong and kidnap this guy. Okay?” And he’s like, “Yeah, okay.”

Laci (01:38:01):

I was already on my way. I got suction cup thingies.

Matt (01:38:04):

Why is this not corruption? Why is this okay for Harvey Dent to ask him to do?

Laci (01:38:08):

Is that not what they’re for, for international? Call it a pool.

Matt (01:38:12):

A

Laci (01:38:13):

Pool, whatever. Yeah, this is illegal, but why does Harvey Dent care about the mob’s money?

Matt (01:38:20):

Because he was the key to getting to the mob. Well, no, no, you confiscate the money, then they still have access to money. It funds the operations so they can’t do all their shit anymore. So we need to get their money. How

Laci (01:38:32):

About every small business and every big business in town when the mob comes and they give you money, you say, “Nope, your money’s no goodie.”

Matt (01:38:42):

But it’s just like Batman, is this not a red flag to you that he is asking you to do? You might’ve done this anyway, but he, the white knight, is asking you to break the law because he can’t.

Laci (01:38:52):

Well, because his thing, he cares more about his image and like, no, my thing is the mob. I got to do the mob thing. I got to go do that. Yeah, this is selfish. But Batman also still thinks it’s the mob. He’s not thinking about The Joker either. They’re just on the same page right now. They’re just like, “No, we don’t need to get them.” That’s why they each have a conversation separately about where to focus.

Matt (01:39:14):

Yeah. It’s just that whatever principle Bruce believes in, it’s not the law because the law – He wants

Laci (01:39:23):

Gotham to be good again,

Matt (01:39:25):

Whatever

Laci (01:39:26):

It is.

Matt (01:39:26):

It is ends justify the means. So if we’re doing something good, then whatever we have to do is fine. But who determines what’s good? I do.

Laci (01:39:34):

He just doesn’t see himself in a chain of effect thing. His parents getting killed, him getting training, him now being a Batman. He doesn’t see him as being just another random event to make another domino fall and that there’s no controlling this. You’re just creating a new system where someone clever will find a way to exploit it.

Matt (01:39:59):

Right.

Laci (01:40:00):

That’s it. There’s always going to be this. Just have systems in place to support people who are injured and wronged and maybe scal back the incarceration stuff. And you surely shouldn’t have a fucking Arkham asylum. You’ve just been breeding insane people for every fucking movie. Let’s bulldoze that. Let’s get real mental healthcare. All you can do is fix the things that we know are going to keep happening. There’s no stopping them from happening.

Matt (01:40:28):

Yeah. And even if your idea that like, okay, this guy, Harvey Dent, he’s the one who can fix everything. He’s term limited. But what is the thing?

Laci (01:40:37):

Right. What is it?

Matt (01:40:38):

And he’s going to die one day.

Laci (01:40:40):

What does he think is going to happen when the mafia is not there?

Matt (01:40:43):

I know.

Laci (01:40:45):

They’re both baby brained and thinking super hyper locally.

Matt (01:40:50):

So they’re not planning their big mission to Hong Kong. He needs Lucius Fox to go over to Hong Kong first. I

Laci (01:40:56):

Got to say I deleted this whole scene.

Matt (01:40:57):

Oh, really? I

Laci (01:40:58):

Know I watched it.

Matt (01:40:59):

I like it a lot. I

Laci (01:40:59):

Don’t remember anything.

Matt (01:41:00):

Well, so what happens is he’s like, “Hey, Lucius, can you go to Hong Kong to tell Lao that we’re not doing our deal?” And he’s like, “What’s wrong with the phone call?” He’s like, “I need you to go in person, please. Also, I have a lot of boring requests. I need a mask that turns. I need to wear a Batman mask where I can turn my neck so I could be less like Matt Stokes.”

Laci (01:41:20):

Yeah, no, but he needs to say that so that they can get across the vulnerability, the guns and knives. That’s the only point in changing the costume.

Matt (01:41:28):

And he does need to turn his head, but yes. But I love, this is his best scene in the movie, Morgan Freeman, is he’s like, “Oh yeah, he’s going to ask me for a bunch of shit. Yeah. ” He’s like, “That’s boring.” And then he says – I don’t

Laci (01:41:42):

Want to be the CEO. Stop making me.

Matt (01:41:44):

And he says, “Also, I need to be able to get into a plane from the air.” And he says – Oh, right. A

Laci (01:41:48):

Skyhook.

Matt (01:41:48):

He say there’s a mortality, that’s Malaka, Mr. Wang. So then Bruce and Alfred are planning their mission to… Michael Kane just saying, “I talked on the phone to a very nox man who said he could get me. ” I don’t even know what it was. I just like that he said, “A very nox man.” So they abscond with the Russian ballet. So he cock blocks Harvey Dent here. He was excited about going to the ballet.

Laci (01:42:14):

A petty little… I get you needed to create an… Did you though? Did you need to create diversion? Was anyone looking around for Bruce Wayne? In fact, you just fucking put yourself in a situation where you have 150 witnesses to you disappearing into the water?

Matt (01:42:31):

Yeah. Hey, at the same time that Mr. Lao was kidnapped in Hong Kong, Bruce Wayne was mysteriously not in the country. Oh no, he was with the ballet though.

Laci (01:42:41):

Yeah, but all of those guys saw you go away for a long time.

Matt (01:42:44):

So Joker goes up to this guy, Gamble, the black gangster. We have the black gangster, the Russian gangster, the Chinese gangster.

Laci (01:42:53):

They sure are divert. They allow other underground organized crime to thrive and I think that shows community.

Matt (01:43:02):

It really does. What’s so bad about this?

Laci (01:43:04):

Because when all the mob bosses meet, it’s Italian mafia mobs. This is not the mafia. This is just different heads of crime associations.

Matt (01:43:16):

And Batman’s making them get along.

Laci (01:43:18):

That’s sweet.

Matt (01:43:20):

But Joker has his confrontation. I want to know how I got these scars. No.

Laci (01:43:24):

No.

Matt (01:43:25):

And it’s the first time he tells the story and you don’t know that later he will contradict himself. But again, the editing’s so bad that you don’t know if he slices gamble up or not, kills him, just drops to the ground. He just

Laci (01:43:37):

Goes up.

Matt (01:43:39):

Our operation –

Laci (01:43:40):

I mean, he’s shooting him. I don’t think he’s into torture. I don’t –

Matt (01:43:44):

Joker? I think that he kills this guy right here with the knife. Yeah,

Laci (01:43:48):

He kills him. But he’s not going to cut his face and cut his face. He’s not doing anything fancy. If he’s going to kill you, he’ll kill you quick. It’s a

Matt (01:43:55):

Problem that we don’t even know this from watching the scene though. Yeah. And then he tells the other guys – Yeah, what

Laci (01:43:59):

If he has the same morals as Batman? No, we’ve already seen him kill a bunch of people.

Matt (01:44:03):

Our operation is small, but there’s a lot of room for aggressive expansion. Bust the pool cue. Here you go. Fight to the death with the pool cue. That’s

Laci (01:44:11):

Fucked up. That’s some jangle unchained shit right there. Now you guys, there’s three of you here, two will die. But that’s Joker betting on those three men not having the amenity to just not do it because I guess they assume they’re going to get shot if they don’t. I’d rather get shot than beat to death with half a pool stick. That’s a good

Matt (01:44:32):

Point. I didn’t think of that. He’s literally a mini morality play. That’s all

Laci (01:44:35):

He’s ever doing. Every single scene he does this.

Matt (01:44:37):

Yeah. With you have to choose between Rachel and Harvey.

Laci (01:44:41):

But he’s constantly proving to himself why he’s still doing what he’s doing. So it’s partial to show the contradiction to whoever’s witnessing, but a lot of it I think is to propel him to keep going and not feel bad about his choices.

Matt (01:44:55):

Fox, Morgan Freeman goes to meet with Lao in Hong Kong to tell him the deal’s off and Mr. Lao is pissed off, but this is all Ru is just so Morgan Freeman can leave his cell phone in this building because it has a sona, a sona, Mr. Mann. A lot of

Laci (01:45:07):

Is done with cell phones in this fucking…

Matt (01:45:08):

And Batman goes on a cool ass invasion of the building. And Christopher Nolan wants to make a Bond movie so bad that’s why he always… That’s

Laci (01:45:16):

All I thought I was watching. Makes

Matt (01:45:18):

Little bond sequences in his movies like this. Sky Fall four years later, we’ll do a sequence a lot like this. And he fucking grabs Lao, gets on a hot air balloon out the window and onto an airplane. Neck shot Lao’s back in Gotham. Please deliver me to Lieutenant Gordon. He’s

Laci (01:45:34):

Got to be so motion sick too. He did a sky hook. And

Matt (01:45:37):

Now Maggie Joan Hall. This is the

Laci (01:45:39):

Weirdest Maggie Jillian Hall acts. She’s just a little sex kitten in this. So weird.

Matt (01:45:43):

She’s

Laci (01:45:43):

Supposed to be just hard nosed. She’s supposed to be like fucking any other sergeant or woman cop performance we’ve ever seen instead she’s just like, “I fuck whoever I work with. You think you could give us some intel?” Why

Matt (01:45:58):

Don’t you tell me about your dealings?

Laci (01:46:00):

I think you’re lying. I don’t think you’re telling me the truth right now. And then he says, “What if I were to tell you this? ” Oh my God. That sounds real, God.

Matt (01:46:12):

They keep threatening that they’re going to send loud to county. County. You won’t stand a chance in county. You’ll be fucking killed by all the other prisoners. I’m

Laci (01:46:20):

From China. I don’t know what the fuck you… I have no frame of context here.

Matt (01:46:24):

I guess it’s because… I don’t know. It’s

Laci (01:46:27):

Not them threatening him. It’s them contemplating what to do with him and Oldman being completely sure that it’s too corrupt by the mafia to send him into general population where the mafia will just hit him.

Matt (01:46:41):

No, I know. But then that is a threat to him. We’re not going to kill you ourselves, but we’ll let you go get killed. So that itself is it. Oh,

Laci (01:46:47):

I don’t remember them threatening him with it, but just that they were trying to decide where to poot him.

Matt (01:46:51):

So let’s make a deal. Okay? And he’s like, “Well, I handled all their financial data. I’m not going to return you their money, but I will spill the beans on all their financial dealings and then you can build a RICO case. Ooh, you just have to put me on a plane back to Hong Kong.” And Maggie Gyllenhaal’s like –

Laci (01:47:08):

Because a RICO case is one of the only things where you don’t have to trial an individual crime for each mob boss. They just all have to be in on the same one crime. That’s what’s so handy about it. And it’s really the only way to take down something like the mafia because you take them all out with one hit and there’s no time for killing witnesses. There’s no time for training up someone new or other fractions. But I mean, did you take account for how many of them have 16-year-old boys that’ll be 18 soon?

Matt (01:47:37):

Well, plenty of civil rights advocates have pointed out. RICO sounds like it’s marketed as this great tool to fight organized crime. And the way it’s actually used is to shockingly go after totally disadvantaged people all the time and ruin their lives. So as long as you testify in open court, then you’ll be on your plane to Hong Kong.

Laci (01:47:56):

What’s the difference in testifying somewhere else? I don’t get that.

Matt (01:48:00):

I don’t know. We need you to go into a –

Laci (01:48:01):

We can have sworn deposition testimony entered in a court. Why not for unsafe witnesses? Can they just not do it in open court? In fact, it is an option because in the first Batman, they’re like, “Someone must have paid him off to have her or him testify in open court. That’s how he got shot.” Did you not just see your boyfriend almost get shot? What are you doing? Why are you trying to lose your only witness? What are you doing?

Matt (01:48:26):

Yeah, you don’t even need a judge. You get a court reporter over here. There are all night services we can get.

Laci (01:48:31):

Right.

Matt (01:48:31):

Get

Laci (01:48:32):

A little stamp.

Matt (01:48:33):

So he does. They spill the beads. The mob families have their meeting and they’re like, “I guess it is time to hire the joker,” but then they all get arrested at the same time.

Laci (01:48:43):

You think they have that many handcuffs? Just like zip ties. They probably use zip ties.

Matt (01:48:48):

I think they have a lot of zip ties. I think

Laci (01:48:49):

So.

Matt (01:48:50):

The judge is going through her pages and pages of indictments and inside as a joker card. She’s like, “Hmm.”

Laci (01:48:56):

I’m sorry. I do appreciate all the files on the tables.This is a little bit realistic and they’re a little bit more organized on the non-mob side. And that people are really, really respecting the rule of how you should be on the bride side and you should be on the room side. That row of cops has nothing to do with it.

Matt (01:49:12):

But the mayor, Mayor Garcia, Nestor Carbonell.

Laci (01:49:17):

Batman dead. Yeah, in hockey pads, fucking moron.

Matt (01:49:20):

Brings Harvey Dent and Jim Gordon into his office. And he’s like, “What the fuck is up with this giant stunt? You have the entire mafia in a courtroom. This is never going to stand because all of this is based on you went and kidnapped –

Laci (01:49:33):

Someone from China.

Matt (01:49:34):

They’re going to get off on appeal.

Laci (01:49:36):

Literally people saw a Batman sky hook him out of a building.

Matt (01:49:42):

Right.

Laci (01:49:42):

There’s no secret who took

Matt (01:49:43):

Him. In front of tons of cops.

Laci (01:49:44):

We’re the only ones with the Batman.

Matt (01:49:46):

And what they say is like, yeah, they will. Well, first of all, the bosses are all going to get out on bail right now, but the lower level guys know they’re going to have to spend 18 months, two years in prison until their sentences get overturned on appeal because they will. But imagine what you can do with 18 months of crime-free streets.

Laci (01:50:04):

Imagine what they can do with 18 months of in prison in asylum training on crime, planning, the time they’d have to plan.

Matt (01:50:13):

That’s just another thing. I guess they

Laci (01:50:14):

Could find Jesus. I don’t know.

Matt (01:50:16):

No, but it’s just the idea of crime is a thing that criminals do. And so if you get rid of the criminals, there’s no more crime. If they’re in jail, there’s no more crime.

Laci (01:50:23):

You haven’t gotten rid of them. You’ve just put them in a place where they get angry.

Matt (01:50:26):

No, but even if they were all dead, they would be replaced with new ones.

Laci (01:50:29):

Right. Just oh my God. Oh my God.

Matt (01:50:34):

The mayor sits Harvey Dent down and he’s like, okay, listen, people like you, but now after this stunt, they’re going to come after you. So you better have a squeak, clean record or else any misstep you make, all of this is going to come crashing down.

Laci (01:50:49):

An alibi to suggest that maybe the cops were in on sending Batman, but you weren’t. Is that the idea?

Matt (01:50:57):

I think that specifically, but just generally broadly, if you’re taking these huge swings, you got to make sure everything you do is pristine because any misstep you make –

Laci (01:51:10):

You yourself are becoming a vigilante. You are working outside. Gordon is. You are. You’re all working outside of the laws that we have. You’re all just three little Batmans.

Matt (01:51:21):

Which now the Joker gets on the news because he had one of those fake Batman guys hangs him from a building, slams it into the mayor’s office and then has a – This is an

Laci (01:51:31):

Effective jumpscare.

Matt (01:51:33):

Yeah, you shouted. Has a hostage video that he filmed where he’s like, “Tell everybody what your name is. My name is Brian something.” He’s like, “See, this is how crazy Batman is making everybody in Gotham.” And basically if Batman doesn’t reveal himself, more people are going to die. As we talk about this movie, I’m even liking it. It started to all make more sense to me. The thing with Gordon and Dent, your point about them becoming vigilantes on their own and the Joker’s point of just my presence is making these people do things that they should not be doing.

Laci (01:52:08):

Right. Because the end justifies the means. If they could just stop, if everything just stopped, if Batman… I even told you I’d go away if Batman went away. I’m only here because you’re fun. Doesn’t mean he won’t kill a couple more people, but if Batman stops participating, stops showing up, he would just go away.

Matt (01:52:31):

Right. Because he says, “What would I do without you going back to ripping off mob bosses?” So that’s not rip them off. Who cares? Right. Just don’t shoot people. Don’t kill innocent people. So it’s time for the big fundraiser for Harvey Dent.

Laci (01:52:44):

This is the thing that’s most like the Batman performance by Jack Nicholson where he forcefully… Does he dance with someone for a second? Does he twirl someone? With Vicki Vail. No, no, I know that. But in this scene, I thought he migtre.

Matt (01:52:57):

He

Laci (01:52:57):

Seems like he might. He interacts by taking a champagne glass and going, “Ha, ha, ha.” And then drinking the tiny bit that’s left in it. But he does interact with a couple of ladies.

Matt (01:53:08):

Both he and Bruce Wayne to champagne out of a glass because they’re so alike. So they’re having the party. Dent is like – So decadent. I don’t fit in with these rich fucks. And then Bruce Wayne arrives – Wayne’s a little

Laci (01:53:20):

Joker. A little Bruce Wayne.

Matt (01:53:22):

Bruce Wayne arrives in a helicopter with three sexy ladies and he’s like, “Where is my friend? Oh, Harvey, you dumb fuck.”

Laci (01:53:31):

Get in the car loser. We’re going to fuck some of these ladies.

Matt (01:53:34):

I though, isn’t that the guy with those horrendous campaign commercials?

Laci (01:53:38):

Right. Let me embarrass you really bad about your lack of funding before now so that you can make sure to rectify that.

Matt (01:53:47):

And I guess he has to be doing that because everybody knows Bruce Wayne is an asshole. So it would be weird if he suddenly – But

Laci (01:53:53):

He seems to be also publicly bullying Dent into using the money. Your campaign ads are embarrassing because you had no money. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So his corruption, his wealth is corrupting Harvey Dent. His vigilante corrupts Harvey Dent. He turns him.

Matt (01:54:14):

He’s turned. Yeah, Dent originally ran a Bernie Sanders. The average donation was 37 bucks. And now it’s the average donation is $37 billion from one man. Now I have a whole professional team making me campaign ads. It used to just be like I had volunteers who believed in me.

Laci (01:54:30):

Now I’m going to get elected because of the money, not because of the people. And

Matt (01:54:33):

Therefore I do not

Laci (01:54:34):

Have to fall. Thank you.

Matt (01:54:38):

Look at this face. This is the face of Gotham’s bright future. And everybody’s like, “Wow, thanks Bruce.” And he goes outside, he tosses champagne down the –

Laci (01:54:47):

Kills a lady.

Matt (01:54:47):

80 million stories below.

Laci (01:54:50):

You’re in the penthouse, Bruce. It’s not

Matt (01:54:51):

The mansion anymore. Champaign icickles impales her.

Laci (01:54:54):

He’s used to being three stories up in a mansion hitting a gardener. He’s 80 floors up, kills a

Matt (01:54:59):

Child. Yeah. And Maggie Jill Hall goes out and she’s like, “Why are you making fun of Harvey?” And he’s like, “No, I believe in Harvey because remember that time you said that if I could stop being Batman, you’d marry me? ” She’s like, “Yes, and I meant it and I want to. ” And he’s like, “I think that that day is coming. I think if Harvey locks up enough mobsters, I can quit being Batman.” So this is –

Laci (01:55:21):

Shortsighted. Do you not see the Joker?

Matt (01:55:25):

But the Nolan take on the character is this guy doesn’t want to be Batman. It’s a temporary project that I’m going to dabble in for a while and then I’ll retire.

Laci (01:55:32):

No, he wants both. He wants to be with her and he thinks if he’s got her and they’re in a relationship and then there’s a need for Batman again that she’ll just be like, “Yeah, I know that Gotham needs you. ” She keeps fucking all the DAs. She has this in her. She wants to be the side piece of the person helping the most.

Matt (01:55:47):

And he can present it as like a morality play to her. Think of it, Maggie. You’re making a choice. If I’m not Batman, think of the people who are going to suffer. You want that on your conscience. You

Laci (01:55:55):

Know I don’t want to be this.

Matt (01:55:57):

And honestly, it’s low-key abusive and gaslighting that you won’t let me be Batman.

Laci (01:56:01):

Could have just been okay with an open relationship. All this would be fine. All three of them would be safer. They would’ve all three gotten captured by Joker at the exact same time. I don’t know. I don’t know what would’ve happened.

Matt (01:56:13):

Remember how the judge got a Joker card in her files. Well, they ran that card and they found traces of three people’s DNA, Harvey Dent, the mayor and the judge. No, no, no. The police commissioner Loeb and the judge. And they’re like, “The joke is going after those three people. Get them.” So they go pick up the judge from her house, these two cops, and they put her in her car and they’re like, “Go, go to a safe location.” She immediately blows up.

Laci (01:56:42):

Why didn’t she get a ride?

Matt (01:56:44):

Because these cops, they rigged her car because they’re dirty cops. Gordon goes up to Commissioner Loeb and he’s like, “Commissioner, you got to stay in this whole fucking office. Okay?” And then Batman or Bruce Wayne incapacitates Harvey Dent.

Laci (01:56:58):

Puts him in a wardrobe. You’re in a penthouse with full closets. You put him in a piece of furniture.

Matt (01:57:05):

It was good enough. And Maggie Gyllenhaals, as he starts choking her boyfriend to do that, she’s like, “What are you doing?” The Joker’s made a threat on his lawn.

Laci (01:57:15):

So if I kill him first…

Matt (01:57:18):

The joker arrives. There’s Harvey.

Laci (01:57:20):

Oh, Jesus, man.

Matt (01:57:21):

Here’s Harvey. You see Harvey? Where’s Harvey? Where? Oh. Eats a shrimp cocktail. And Rachel comes out and confronts him and he’s like, “Hello. Beautiful. You remind me of my wife. Want to know how I got these scars?” Wife now tells the second tale of how I got these scars. And then Batman fights him and then Joker throws Rachel out the window. Batman jumps after her, saves her. They crash onto a car below and she’s like, “Thanks for saving me, Batman.” He’s like, “No problem.” And it cuts instantly to the next day. And that bothered me so much in the movie theater of…

Laci (01:57:54):

Where’s the Joker?

Matt (01:57:55):

Does Joker

Laci (01:57:56):

Go away? Everything’s fine now. Yeah. You did no sweep of the event. This is a Harvey didn’t fundraiser. So DeJoker did no other harm. He threw a lady out the window batman and saved her and DeJoker just ran away. Batmobile lost its wheel.

Matt (01:58:11):

And it may sound like annoying plothole thing to complain about. Oh, it just

Laci (01:58:18):

Isn’t Joker enough.

Matt (01:58:19):

It also just doesn’t feel like this meant anything.

Laci (01:58:22):

Also, how did Harvey get out of the thing and was he thankful? And why isn’t Bruce Wayne there to help?

Matt (01:58:30):

Does he know Bruce Wayne choked him out? What is he told happened? If I lost consciousness, it would be the defining incident of my life.

Laci (01:58:39):

Well, we always come back to this. Yeah. Any of these scenes where the police are chasing down a bad person and they have to push a lady and it’s like, that lady’s nails.

Matt (01:58:50):

Bruce Wayne and Alfred, they’re talking about the Joker. They’re talking about escalation. The mob turned to the Joker, but they didn’t understand him. They didn’t understand him. And maybe Master Wayne, you don’t understand the joke.

Laci (01:59:03):

And maybe Master Wayne, the people don’t understand the tool they’re using called Batman.

Matt (01:59:08):

Yeah, exactly. To deal with this problem of mafia, a problem that always existed and will always exist. Right.

Laci (01:59:16):

We decided to use a bigger tool and maybe it wasn’t fair and maybe it was military backed and maybe it costs a lot of money. And maybe it’s operating outside of the law, but isn’t it nice to not have the mafia?

Matt (01:59:28):

And I think it is cool to like, if you project onto the Joker something like…

Laci (01:59:35):

Rule of law. Thanos?

Matt (01:59:37):

To project Thanos onto him. No.

Laci (01:59:42):

Thanos has a morality to him. He’s doing a counterintuitive thing to make things better for everyone. I’m not saying Joker’s doing that, but there’s a morality to what the Joker’s doing.

Matt (01:59:58):

There’s an ideology. I don’t know if It’s based in morality. Sure. I mean, Thanos does want to make it better for people. I don’t know if that’s actually what The Joker wants to do. Bain in the next movie who has a much more defined ideology, you could say he’s an accelerationist.

Laci (02:00:17):

Yes,

Matt (02:00:18):

Like

Laci (02:00:18):

The Gun and I Love Boosters.

Matt (02:00:23):

Well, right. The Gun and I Love Boosters, which heightens the contradictions. But the idea of accelerationism is we quickly make everything collapse so that we can bring about the new order where things will be more just.

Laci (02:00:34):

Right. Or here’s this thing you’re doing and you’re doing it because you think the end is going to be this. Let me accelerate it and show you what the actual outcome

Matt (02:00:42):

Is

Laci (02:00:42):

And how you’re wrong or how, no, that’s a great outcome. Let’s get there. That’s what The Gun did. Everyone go see I Love Boosters.

Matt (02:00:49):

Yeah, it’s a good movie. I love that movie.

Laci (02:00:51):

I love

Matt (02:00:51):

It. So Alfred now tells him the bizarre story, “I was a fucking Green Beret.”

Laci (02:00:57):

Just like his fucking story in the prestige and I’m like, “Not now, Michael Kane.” But he’s just like, “I love your stories.” And he lets him tell it.

Matt (02:01:05):

He does, he does. He turns around and pays very close attention.

Laci (02:01:08):

Because he knows there’s going to be… This is the only guidance he’s ever had in his whole life, so I mean, fuck it. But I was like, oh God, you’ve told me this story five times and how’s it going to apply to this? Good.

Matt (02:01:18):

But I’m sorry. I though you spent all your life being a butler. You were running guns to the –

Laci (02:01:23):

You were born with a little tray in your hand, not in your mouth.

Matt (02:01:26):

I was funding fucking Al-Qaeda in Libya. We were going up against Gaddafi and I was in Burma. We were working for the military hunter.

Laci (02:01:39):

Sounds

Matt (02:01:39):

Good.

Laci (02:01:39):

All that sounds fine.

Matt (02:01:41):

And there was a bandit, you see. A bandit.

Laci (02:01:43):

Don’t mind my accent. Colonialism, not in my blood.

Matt (02:01:47):

And it was just bandit. And they were bribing him with rubies, but see, he’s just throwing the rubies away. See Master Wang, some men just walking.

Laci (02:01:56):

And all I could think about was the end of the Goonies. And I’m like, what am I going to do with these fucking rubies?

Matt (02:02:01):

Save the town. This is

Laci (02:02:02):

Not currency. Save

Matt (02:02:04):

The town.

Laci (02:02:04):

I’m going to need a broker. I’m going to need a guy with a fucking little loop.

Matt (02:02:09):

Invest in guitars and VHS. That’s what you need. That’s all you need.

Laci (02:02:14):

Quit giving away our secrets, man.

Matt (02:02:16):

The mergers and acquisitions lawyer who’s asking a lot of questions, goes up to Morgan Freeman. He’s like, “Hey, I took a very cursory look at your books and see that you’re spending billions and billions of dollars on very Batman looking equipment.”

Laci (02:02:26):

I also thought that that very public bat car that he’s been using looks a lot like these blueprints we framed for cinemadality reasons in the third floor break room.

Matt (02:02:37):

I have here this strip from a photo booth of you with Batman and he has his tongue out. It’s very cute, but I want – Yeah,

Laci (02:02:44):

This is my best little man.

Matt (02:02:46):

$10 million a year for the rest of my life. And the only fun Morgan Freeman gets to have in the movie, let me get this drag.

Laci (02:02:54):

Do

Matt (02:02:55):

You want a bribe, this

Laci (02:02:56):

Man?

Matt (02:02:58):

Good luck. One of cinema’s best bitches, Morgan Freeman.

Laci (02:03:03):

Cunty. I love this shot of Heath Ledger.

Matt (02:03:08):

Without the

Laci (02:03:08):

Makeup. With the practical makeup, but without… I mean, he seems to still made his eyes dark, so you don’t know if that’s part, but they show it so briefly that it’s really special.

Matt (02:03:19):

But it was the, just back to Morgan Freeman, it was the guy telling him this whole division was moved off the books suddenly. And Morgan Freeman’s like, “Oh yeah, of course.” But he didn’t know about this. So he goes and asks Master Wayne about it.

Laci (02:03:34):

It’s a public company at this point? Okay. I was about to say it’s a private company. They can do what they want, but they can’t.

Matt (02:03:41):

And he asks him about it and Bruce says, “Luciasaim, playing this one pretty close to the chest.”

Laci (02:03:48):

Yeah. You’re not what I’d call my inner circle.

Matt (02:03:50):

Have you ever heard play it close to the chest?

Laci (02:03:54):

It’s interchangeable with vest.

Matt (02:03:56):

I’ve only ever heard it in this movie because it later gets said again. Chest.

Laci (02:04:01):

I mean, it’s the same. When you’re holding your cards, you hold them close to your chest.

Matt (02:04:05):

I get it.

Laci (02:04:06):

But yeah, I don’t know.

Matt (02:04:07):

People say vest.

Laci (02:04:08):

You know what though? If you’re going to say it wrong one time, you better say it wrong the next time.

Matt (02:04:11):

True.

Laci (02:04:12):

Yeah.

Matt (02:04:12):

It’s like how my dad calls it hot cream and not ice cream.

Laci (02:04:14):

Okay, that’s not at all. He does that to annoy us.

Matt (02:04:17):

But maybe in the Nolan house, this is what they say. And so Chris and Jonathan, they’re talking to David Goyer and he’s like –

Laci (02:04:24):

Or the guy that wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, who literally published in his book that was edited in proofread, you know what they say? A fool and his money are one big party. What? That’s not even fucking close nor the sentiment of the colloquialism. That is insane that that was printed.

Matt (02:04:44):

I don’t even know what Rich Dad, Poor Dad is.

Laci (02:04:47):

Oh, it’s an airport book. It’s terrible. It’s all about mindset. That’s the difference between a poor dad and a rich dad. Oh. Yeah. It’s just like exploit people. That’s the fucking tip. An MLM.

Matt (02:05:01):

I think I always… What am I thinking of? Mom’s house dad’s house. I always though it’s like a divorce book for kids.

Laci (02:05:08):

Why would it be called Rich Dad Poor Dad?

Matt (02:05:10):

I didn’t think about it.

Laci (02:05:10):

All right.

Matt (02:05:12):

Sometimes your dad is rich, then he has a divorce and he’s poor. And alimony means she gets alimony money. So they’re having a parade where there’s a million cops marching. Get all the cops in one place because Commissioner Loeb –

Laci (02:05:25):

We are not scared.

Matt (02:05:27):

Oh, I forgot to say Commissioner Loeb died.

Laci (02:05:28):

He died, guys. Two of the three targets died. The Joker gave up. I don’t know.

Matt (02:05:37):

Because Gordon was meeting with him in his office and he’s like, “Gordon, let me tell you something. When you’re commissioner, and by the way, you’re never going to be commissioner, honey. You get a lot of threats off your wife. You get a lot of threats on your life. Now let me take the drink of this alcohol.” So they’re having a big parade in this guy’s honor. And Bruce Wayne goes into this building where he finds all these cops who are locked up with duct tape and over their mouths and

Laci (02:06:04):

The

Matt (02:06:04):

Uniforms were stolen.

Laci (02:06:06):

Well, and it’s… Yes, yes. And then we see all these who we think are people working for The Joker who have their hands duct taped into the shape of like pew pew, I’ve got a gun. But then they’ve got masks on to make them look like they work for the joker so that you can’t tell that their mouths are taped and they’re in front of these big picture windows, which doesn’t make sense, but it does make them still think, okay, these are bad guys, even though it’s a weird setup kind of feeling.

Matt (02:06:35):

That’s later. That’s at the end of the movie.

Laci (02:06:40):

You could have stopped me at any time.

Matt (02:06:43):

Was I not paying attention during this part? Yeah. Oh my God, the Joker and his men are down there. Disguised as cops. Oh no. And then we see Heath Ledger without his makeup on and he takes a shot at the mayor and Gordon jumps in front of the bullet and takes it.

Laci (02:06:59):

Clearly in the arm. He’s dead.

Matt (02:07:01):

And because the movie’s edited so shittily.

Laci (02:07:04):

I guess he’s fucking dead.

Matt (02:07:06):

Yeah, because he jumps instantly to them delivering the news to his wife. Your husband’s dead. We’re so sorry. And she screams at Batman. When all of that happens, and it is an incredible shot, and this is what Nolan is great at is I got 4,000 extras to stand in a city block of Chicago.

Laci (02:07:24):

Shit’s hard.

Matt (02:07:24):

And made them all scatter at the same time.

Laci (02:07:27):

How do you not cause an injury?

Matt (02:07:30):

They arrest one suspect. He’s in the ambulance and Harvey Denton gets in the ambulance with him and the guy is wearing a name tag that says Officer Rachel Dawes. And he’s like, Rachel Dawes, how do you know that name? And so he decides, I’m commandeering this ambulance. And he takes him off by himself.

Laci (02:07:46):

Who’s Rachel Dawes?

Matt (02:07:48):

Maggie Gyllen Hall.

Laci (02:07:49):

Oh, Daws.

Matt (02:07:50):

So Harvey’s questioning this guy and he’s like, I’m going to fucking shoot you dead. I’m going to flip my coin. And if it’s heads, you live, tails, you die. All

Laci (02:07:58):

The while you have no background on this guy. This guy is schizophrenic. He has no control over… I mean, he’s doing bad things, but he was locked up and he’s being manipulated. You’re not supposed to kill this person. You’re not the judge jury and executioner just

Matt (02:08:12):

Because

Laci (02:08:13):

Now it’s about Rachel.

Matt (02:08:15):

Him being schizophrenic is immaterial. I think Geneva Convention says this is torture. If you threaten to kill somebody and do the thing with the coin flip. Okay, it lands on heads. So we find out late. We assume it’s a two-sided coin. Something’s going on,

Laci (02:08:30):

Right? But then Batman season, he’s just scandalized.

Matt (02:08:33):

No

Laci (02:08:33):

Tent.

Matt (02:08:34):

But he is right. You’re a white knight and you’re breaking the law and this is a worse thing than anything that…

Laci (02:08:42):

You’re a symbol.

Matt (02:08:43):

Prosecutors being able to do this is not, that puts us in a worse position than anything. But

Laci (02:08:47):

His end is justifying his being. That’s the thing. Everyone’s got their thing that they will cross the line for. And we all act like we’re so different from people who just happened to have been pushed there way earlier, who had less means in a worse life. And we have no sympathy for them at all.

Matt (02:09:03):

Right.

Laci (02:09:03):

And in fact, all those disgusting pieces of shit get on that boat and we’re going to fuck that boat. We’re going to fuck that boat and then we’re going to sink it. It’s just the way we talk about the people on that boat as if they don’t have kids and a family and a life worth living.

Matt (02:09:17):

Yeah. What they keep saying is those men made their choice.

Laci (02:09:20):

Did they? Or did their fucking situation make it for them? Did Harvey Dent decide to go torture a schizophrenic man for a little while or did something happen even to him?

Matt (02:09:31):

And Batman kidnaps Maroney and he drops him off a three-story building and breaks his legs.

Laci (02:09:36):

And he’s fine guys. He’s going to be in another scene with just a little walker. No, his bones didn’t shoot out of his body.

Matt (02:09:44):

I know. So

Laci (02:09:45):

Stupid.

Matt (02:09:45):

Marone’s like, he’s intimidated by Batman, but he’s like, “Listen, man, the Joker’s in town now. And now we all realize we don’t need to be scared of you because you have your rule. You don’t kill people and he will kill people. So no, the old school criminals of this town, we’re not going to help you find him because we’re fucking scared of him.” And Batman realizes as he says to dent in the next scene… Or no, no, he says to Dent, “I have to just give myself… I have to turn myself in. I have to unmask.”

Laci (02:10:15):

I’m at the limits of what I can do in this situation with my rule.

Matt (02:10:20):

Yeah, because he says that to Rachel in the next scene. He’s like, “I have to because I realized today what it will actually take for me to beat the Joker and I’m not willing to do that. So I’m going to turn myself in. And by the way, you said we could be together.” And she’s like, “Don’t make me your one. Hope for a normal life.” Yeah.

Laci (02:10:36):

Well, every single time I tell you I’m going to quit. You’re like, “Well, don’t do it for me. ” And it’s like, “But I’m doing it for you. Can we do this now? I don’t think you’re really doing it for me. I think you really want to be that Batman.” It’s like, well, you keep fucking pulling this shit because you are always in a relationship with a DA.

Matt (02:10:53):

Where will it end? When will we run out of DAs?

Laci (02:10:58):

Dick’s an ass.

Matt (02:10:59):

And she says, “Bruce, you know that if you turn yourself in, they’re not going to let us be together.”

Laci (02:11:04):

Fucking mean.

Matt (02:11:05):

He’s going to go to prison.

Laci (02:11:06):

He’s rich.

Matt (02:11:07):

I know.

Laci (02:11:10):

No jury would be mad at him unless it’s a bunch of fucking mobsters on the goddamn jury.

Matt (02:11:16):

Now what would happen? I would like to see this.

Laci (02:11:18):

The trial of Batman.

Matt (02:11:20):

You’d have to move it to a new jurisdiction because everybody’s compromised in Gotham.

Laci (02:11:24):

But then you just got Cape Crusader fucking nut job in front of a bunch of people who’ve never heard of him. That also does not seem fair.

Matt (02:11:31):

No. Yeah, he’s a billionaire. He’s not getting in trouble. But you know who is getting in trouble? Alfred. And Bruce doesn’t seem concerned about this at all.

Laci (02:11:37):

He’s just like –

Matt (02:11:38):

Because he says –

Laci (02:11:39):

For some reason, the underground layer is also a crematorium.

Matt (02:11:43):

Yes. So

Laci (02:11:43):

He’s got so many fucking ovens.

Matt (02:11:45):

Toss it all layers into the finest masterwine. And he’s like, “Yeah, good. Anything that can lead back to Rachel or Lucius.”

Laci (02:11:51):

Fuck you.

Matt (02:11:51):

Not you though. You’re

Laci (02:11:52):

Covered in soot, Cinderella. Just keep burning.

Matt (02:11:56):

And Alfred, you’re disappointed with me. What would you have me do?

Laci (02:12:01):

Help.

Matt (02:12:02):

Help me burn this.

Laci (02:12:03):

Yes. It’s so heavy and I’m so old.

Matt (02:12:06):

Nope, that’s what you’re there for. And he says, “Enjua, Master Wayne. Don’t hate you for it, but that’s a point of Batman.”

Laci (02:12:12):

Right. What have we done all this for? Why do I bring a fucking tray of toast and eggs you’re not going to eat all the way down to this fucking crematorium every day? Just for you to be a fucking pussy.

Matt (02:12:24):

The second anything got a little difficult. The mom

Laci (02:12:27):

Said he wasn’t even this scared of me and then this whole time I thought he was so scared.

Matt (02:12:31):

And then at my cosme, it’s so scary. I’m scared of bats. And Ja. Master Wayne and Ja. He’s like, “Sorry, I can’t.

Laci (02:12:40):

You’re not my dad.” And then he leaves.

Matt (02:12:42):

Well, they ride the elevator up together and Alfred’s like –

Laci (02:12:45):

Alfred wasn’t even finished his job, but whatever.

Matt (02:12:47):

I suppose you’re happy that you get to tell me I told you so. And you’re like, “Today I don’t feel much like telling you. I don’t tell

Laci (02:12:55):

Yourself.”That’s a nice little levity.

Matt (02:12:57):

I suppose they’ll lock me up too with you, Master Wayne. And he’s like, “With me, I’m going to tell him the whole thing was your idea.”

Laci (02:13:04):

Oh, that’s going to make him feel better while he’s trying to extenuate, “Hey, remember how you’re protecting everyone but me? Here’s where you tell me I’m going to be fine, right? I have a wife and kid in London.”

Matt (02:13:17):

Master Wayne, you do have at least a phone number I can fucking call.

Laci (02:13:22):

I think I burnt your fucking rotating thing, your Rolodex.

Matt (02:13:26):

So Harvey Dentist called a press conference and these people in the crowd are like, “No more dead cops. Things are worse than ever.” And he’s like, “Yes, things are bad, but the night is darkest before the dawn. A new day is coming.” And they’re like, “No, fuck that. No more dead cops.” And he’s like, “Fine, take the Batman into custody.” And Bruce Wayne’s about to move forward and Aaroncart’s like, “I am the Batman.” So they cuff him boys.

Laci (02:13:49):

Really not sure what this does, but yeah, they both see each other as the solution and neither of them want to be the solution, but they both claim to want to be the solution. They’re both pussing out.

Matt (02:14:01):

It’s not

Laci (02:14:01):

The brave thing for him to say he’s Batman. He’s going to be like, “Girl, got to go. “

Matt (02:14:06):

And he is not in on the plan with Gordon and Batman.

Laci (02:14:09):

I have no idea.

Matt (02:14:10):

He’s not because he seems surprised when he sees Gordon.

Laci (02:14:14):

Gordon.

Matt (02:14:14):

So this isn’t… Yeah, no, he’s going rogue here. Oh,

Laci (02:14:20):

That makes sense. Gordon was going to save Batman.

Matt (02:14:22):

We’re cutting now to Rachel. She’s complaining to Alfred. She’s like, “Alfred, why is he doing this? “

Laci (02:14:27):

God.

Matt (02:14:29):

When she says this to Alfred, Alfred is wearing an apron. I had to pause and point out to you. He’s wearing an apron. He’s about to get arrested.

Laci (02:14:36):

He got sundershoot all over his other clothes.

Matt (02:14:39):

Bruce is still having him fucking do housework with his apron on. What is he doing?

Laci (02:14:43):

I don’t think Alfred knows how to sit still, to be fair. Yeah.

Matt (02:14:46):

So she’s like, “Alfred, tell him… Here, I wrote him a letter. Can you give this to him when the time is right?” Thanks,

Laci (02:14:52):

Rachel. I needed something else to do. We’re in the middle of a fucking crisis, but can I also deliver this fucking message? Sure.

Matt (02:14:57):

There’s such

Laci (02:14:58):

A thing as email.

Matt (02:14:59):

Listen, Laci, not only can you deliver this note for me, how will I know when a time is right?

Laci (02:15:04):

You’ll know.

Matt (02:15:05):

It’s not sealed. So what I’m saying is, please do read my letter and then make your own determination as to what the emotional time is to… You’re asking him to do a lot, man. Bitch. So then she goes down to Harvey, “Harvey, they’re taking you away.” And he’s like, “Yeah, I’m going away, baby.” She’s like, “You can’t do it. You can’t go through with it. Tell him you’re not Batman.” And he’s like, “I’ll flip for it. Heads I won’t go through.” You can’t

Laci (02:15:31):

Leave off the top.

Matt (02:15:32):

“You can’t leave something like that. I don’t. “And then she flips over the coin. You make your unlock Harvey. Okay.

Laci (02:15:42):

Here’s something I do not think they make clear. Who gives him the regular coin? Is it the Joker?

Matt (02:15:47):

His father. Oh, no, no, no, no. That coin, his lucky coin gets burnt. So the burnt side becomes the tail side. Which is how it was, at least in the animated series from the ’90s.

Laci (02:16:01):

It is dirty. So that makes sense. Wait a second. That’s going to fuck up the trajectory. How do you know that coin’s even flipping the way it’s supposed to? Now you’ve got loaded dice.

Matt (02:16:11):

So he can still say, I make my own float. That’s

Laci (02:16:13):

What loaded dice is. Do you know that?

Matt (02:16:15):

From inception, yeah.

Laci (02:16:16):

But you’ve heard of loaded dice, but do you know what that means? It

Matt (02:16:19):

Means a dice that is not going to toss like an actual objective dice should. Right.

Laci (02:16:25):

It is bottom weight. Right.

Matt (02:16:26):

Yes. Joseph Gordon Leavitt in inception. See,

Laci (02:16:31):

I’m at disadvantage.

Matt (02:16:32):

Only I know the weight of this loaded dye. Got

Laci (02:16:34):

It.

Matt (02:16:35):

Lots of Christopher Nolan characters talk like this. Lots

Laci (02:16:38):

Of prestigious shit in there. So

Matt (02:16:40):

They’re transporting him. This is the big action set piece that everyone celebrates from this movie.

Laci (02:16:46):

I do love that motorcycle. I love the Batman. Oh

Matt (02:16:48):

Yeah.

Laci (02:16:49):

Yeah.

Matt (02:16:49):

But this is also that they can transport Aaron Eckhardt to county because they know the Joker’s going to try to kill him. So they need to put him in a very heavily secured vehicle with a giant SWAT team escort. And in the armored vehicle that they put Aaron Eckhart in, it is being driven by a man wearing a mask. And this other guy gets in and he’s like, “Pleased to meet you, buddy. I hope you’re a good driver.” He doesn’t say anything.

Laci (02:17:12):

He’s saying the most comic book shit too, like bad. Yeah. And it’s before COVID, so there’s no reason for this mask. But

Matt (02:17:18):

Laci said he’s the joker. Right.

Laci (02:17:20):

Because you’re so used to, by this time, the Joker being in all the places. Yes, of

Matt (02:17:24):

Course. Even

Laci (02:17:25):

Though I’m looking at him. I’m like, look, down with him. Because

Matt (02:17:28):

The Joker pulls up in a big circus truck where it says laughter is the best medicine. And they spray painted an S in front of the L, so it’s slaughter is the best medicine.

Laci (02:17:38):

Uh-oh.

Matt (02:17:39):

All this cool car shit happens. What do you think of all this cool car shit?

Laci (02:17:42):

I follow it. I get confused as to who’s in what truck and why isn’t the Harvey Denton bouncing all around when the other truck is the one that’s actually being hit. So I did lose track of where is he.

Matt (02:17:55):

It ultimately culminates in Batman.

Laci (02:17:57):

I’m honestly distracted by the guy that’s not speaking. I don’t know that that’s effective. The whole time I’m paying atention to the wrong car.

Matt (02:18:05):

It is kind of like Fallon in the prestige. You’re like, “Why can’t I see his face? That’s weird.”

Laci (02:18:12):

Yes. There’s a tell here. You’re telling us something. This is way too obvious. And because I feel like it’s so obvious, it can’t be The Joker, but now I’m distracted by why the fuck is it here?

Matt (02:18:22):

Yeah. But I mean, this is Nolan trying to do a magic trick in the movie. How so? Because people – Now they expect them. It could have been plausible that Gordon would die halfway through the movie.

Laci (02:18:32):

Sure. Sure. It’s dark Batman after all. But it’s not like Gary Olden has such a distinct voice that he couldn’t just go…

Matt (02:18:46):

I drive the car.

Laci (02:18:49):

Hold door.

Matt (02:18:51):

Hold the door. Hold the door. This culminates with Batman on his motorcycle. Joker’s on the street and he’s like, “Come on, come on, fucking run me over.” And Batman won’t do it because he won’t take a wife. And he ends up, Batman crashes, as Batman’s on the ground, the Joker and his thugs start kicking him and his suit electrocutes them and Joker finds this so hilarious. It’s

Laci (02:19:15):

Funny.

Matt (02:19:15):

It is funny, but then the masked cop gets out and pulls a gun on the Joker and the Joker’s like, “God damn it now.” And Gordon, it’s Gordon under the mask. Gordon,

Laci (02:19:26):

Son of the bitch. So all

Matt (02:19:27):

Of this – Is it legal

Laci (02:19:28):

To fake your death, Gordon? Are you going around the law at all?

Matt (02:19:32):

Yeah, somebody weigh in. Is it legal to fake your own death? I bet it’s not legal. Also,

Laci (02:19:37):

If you’re shot at a cop parade that’s celebrating a down cop, do you have to the next day have a cop parade? We’re closing down the street again, guys. Just

Matt (02:19:46):

Cop parades on top of cop parades. My God. This faking his death thing, putting his family through the worst experience imaginable. I’m

Laci (02:19:55):

So pissed.

Matt (02:19:56):

It was all in service of him getting to drive the truck.

Laci (02:19:59):

Because he’s the best… Well, everyone’s corrupt and he can only trust himself.

Matt (02:20:06):

But he doesn’t think that. He trusts his people. Gordon trusts his people. Right.

Laci (02:20:10):

But he only has so many and he needs a few drivers. It would take several cops to pull this off, but I guess the most important job is who is transporting whoever claims to be Batman. It doesn’t matter which one of them it is. They’re equally a target.

Matt (02:20:24):

And he and Batman decided you are going to get shot at the parade. Batman

Laci (02:20:29):

Said on it? Yeah.

Matt (02:20:31):

So do pretend to be dead.

Laci (02:20:34):

Nolan do better. I shouldn’t be wondering who the fuck’s in on this. Gordon

Matt (02:20:37):

Would be –

Laci (02:20:38):

But you know, it has been odd this entire movie. They really kind of linger on that lady cop longer than you think they’re going to. Or a main character kind of gives her a nod and you’re like, “Wonder…” So the reveal is not… I mean, that’s not the reveal, but it’s not a surprise when it’s her.

Matt (02:20:54):

Gordon reveals himself to Dent and Dent says, “Gordon, you’re alive. You really do play things close to the chest.” Then the press is mobbing Harvey Dent. “Mr. Dent, were you arguing with the Batman the whole time? “He’s like, ” No, but I had faith he would do the right thing. “What was that, sir? Saving my ass. That’s a good line. And then Ramirez, the detective, escorts him into a police car, puts him in a car. Go away. All right, good. Going to safety. And then the camera lingers with her and you think, hmm.

Laci (02:21:24):

That’s the

Matt (02:21:25):

Lingering moment really. Why linger?

Laci (02:21:27):

Well, and he gives her this nod of thanks. Thank you, Lady Cup.

Matt (02:21:32):

So Gordon goes into the precinct with the mayor. The mayor’s like, my God, crazy shenanigans you’re pulling Gordon, faking your death and all. You’re the new commissioner of police. Yay. Commissioner Gordon. And everyone claps, including the joker. What about that joker? We learned anything about him? And they say, no, no fingerprints that match. No DNA. No name, no alias. No nothing in his pockets, but knives and linked. So go home, Gordon, go home to your wife. And he goes home to his wife and his wife slaps him and then hugs him and all is forgiven.

Laci (02:22:06):

The son’s reaction is the most confusing because it’s like, okay, clearly this woman did not break the news fully or he does not understand life and death. Did Batman save you from the hellfires? I died. I’d be like, son, I die. Are you fucking stupid? No, I did.

Matt (02:22:24):

You’re like 12 years old, son. I mean, come on.

Laci (02:22:26):

Right. Did Batman save your gerbil or grandma? No. Okay.

Matt (02:22:29):

But there’s this… Okay, this is a weird… When they break the news to Gordon’s wife…

Laci (02:22:37):

They make the kid go away. Right. So the wife sat

Matt (02:22:40):

On

Laci (02:22:40):

That for a whole

Matt (02:22:40):

Night. But the camera lingers on the boy. Yeah. So Nolan’s sympathy’s here. His point of view character in the Gordon family, it’s the little boy. It’s not the wife. It’s like he can’t even relate to a wife. A wife with a dead husband, I don’t get that. Husband with a dead wife. Now we’re talking. No, but it is. And then later, the most important one is the son. That’s the one that Nolan can

Laci (02:23:02):

Relate to. The very stupid son that thinks that death can be stopped by Batman.

Matt (02:23:06):

Did Batman pull you out of hell, daddy? Didn’t he

Laci (02:23:08):